401 | Beyond Comfort Zones: A Father-Daughter Conversation on Risk, Faith, and Inheritance (George & Amberly Gourlay)
Episode Description
What happens when a father chooses courage over comfort and moves his family across the world to pioneer something new? In this episode, George Gourlay and his 23-year-old daughter Amberly share their story of leaving an established ministry in South Africa to start fresh in America. You'll hear how one grandfather's radical encounter with God shifted an entire family line, why security comes from identity rather than circumstances, and how giving daughters space to be uncomfortable actually draws them closer to their Heavenly Father.
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George Gourlay is the lead pastor who moved his family from Durban, South Africa to Northeast Florida in 2024. He served for 14 years in ministry leadership in South Africa, following in the footsteps of his father who had a radical encounter with God that transformed their family line. George is married to Leanne and has three children: Amberly (23), Luke (20), and Mitch (10).
Amberly Gourlay is a 23-year-old graduate pursuing global studies and international relations in Boston. She delivered her university's commencement speech, challenging fellow graduates to choose courage over comfort with the heart of Isaiah's "here I am, send me." She's passionate about women's leadership in church and politics and embodies the pioneering spirit passed down through her family line.
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One person's choice to choose God can literally change generations—the legacy you leave matters more than the comfort you keep
True security for your children comes from pointing them back to their Heavenly Father rather than trying to be their ultimate provider
Pioneering requires vulnerability and risk, but it creates inheritance and legacy for those who come after you
Give your daughters intentional affection and affirmation while also creating space for them to grow uncomfortable and dependent on God
The long dull years of middle-aged prosperity can become excellent campaigning weather for the enemy—comfort can be your greatest threat to effectiveness
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Learn about the next DadAwesome Accelerator Cohort
Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text the word "Dad" to (651) 370-8618
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Amberly Gourlay: One person's choice to choose God and one husband's choice to choose his wife and to choose his children literally changes generations. And I'm testament. And so I think going back to South Africa those last two times, I was just so overly aware of the inheritance I have and the legacy. And so incredibly grateful now that I'm older and I understand what those things mean. Choosing business over your family means I was so sober to what that all meant because of that so much more grateful that he was willing to choose God above himself.
Introduction
Jeff Zaugg: This is episode 401 of DadAwesome. Guys, my name is Jeff Zaugg and I'm so thankful you're listening today. You just heard a clip from Amberly Gourlay and today is a special episode. It's a father-daughter interview. And you know how when you have a friend who will text you video clips or text you photos and you just like... It's their gushing love, their pride, joy for fatherhood just kind of shines.
Well, my friend George, George Gourlay, he's the lead pastor of my church down here in Northeast Florida. And I met him about a year ago from Durban, South Africa. And we've just developed a friendship, but he specifically sent me a text saying, hey, I'm out in California. My daughter, Amberly, is graduating and here's her speech. She just shared the commencement speech that Amberly led. She spoke in this moment, kind of commissioned, challenged, gave this compelling, like, let's step out with our whole hearts and with courage.
And I watched twice. I watched once myself, once with my wife, and then later I said, I would, I mean, I just felt this like, "Man, it would be so fun to interview George and Amberly together." So I logged that away months ago and just last month had the opportunity to sit down with George and his 23-year-old daughter Amberly to do a father-daughter interview. So that's today. I'm pumped to share this conversation with you guys. It's a tender one. My goodness. Just so many gold nuggets in this conversation.
But before I jump to that, I want to remind you guys about the DadAwesome Accelerator Cohort. We've had overwhelming demand actually this week. This week launched three cohorts of the DadAwesome accelerator. Two local groups here in Northeast Florida, one virtual group on Wednesdays that kicked off just yesterday, September 24th. We had such demand that we've added another cohort this fall.
So here in about three weeks on October 16th, we're kicking off a mid-fall cohort on Thursdays. We'll be on Thursdays at noon central time. We have four more spots available for that one and then we have three spots left for our late fall cohort kicking off on Wednesday, November 5th. So some of you are thinking, man, I missed out. I missed out because we were filling these up quickly. Well, because we added a third virtual cohort, there is a little more room. I think we have seven spots collectively between the two cohorts coming up here.
Make sure to go to dadawesome.org/coaching to learn more, to prayerfully apply or reach out to me on social. Reach out to me with this email address, awesome@dadawesome.org. I would love to answer all your questions and I would be thrilled to get another six or seven of you guys to jump in and join us for a six week DadAwesome accelerator cohort.
Lastly, we have a voicemail line. It's gonna be linked to all of our show notes. If you have questions, comments, wanna leave some encouragement, I love hearing your voice. You hear my voice a bunch on DadAwesome. So today, episode 401, want to make sure to encourage you guys to send a voice message.
And lastly, if you missed episode 400 last week, we featured 16 clips from the first 400 episodes, along with I read the introduction to the DadAwesome book, so the first launch of the audible, the audio version of the first part of the book. So that's coming up, the launch of that book, but I shared the first intro in episode 400.
That's all I'm gonna share for announcements, invitations. I'm so excited for today's conversation. This is episode 401 with George and his daughter Amberly Gourlay.
Main Interview
Jeff Zaugg: So I think this is maybe the first time I've had a dad-daughter conversation in this phase, because Amberly, you're starting grad program, right?
Amberly Gourlay: Yes.
Jeff Zaugg: Where are you studying in Boston?
Amberly Gourlay: I'm doing global studies in international relations.
Jeff Zaugg: Okay. Yeah. Amazing. Thank you for saying yes to this conversation though, because it's just not that often on DadAwesome I get a chance to hang out with dad-daughter duos. I mean, I truly, I have a bias towards wanting to talk to as many dads and daughters as possible. When my oldest daughter heard that you were going to be interviewed today, she's like, "Who are you interviewing today, dad?" And I said, "Well, Amberly." She said, "I like her. She's cool."
Amberly Gourlay: Cool.
Jeff Zaugg: That was her perspective of you guys' time at that worship night when you guys were hanging out. So sweet. Yeah, grateful to get to spend time with you today. I thought by form of introduction, it'd be fun for you guys to introduce each other. So Amberly, would you be okay going first and just introduce your dad? Kind of just a little bit about him from any angle you want. It doesn't have to be super long, but we'd love to hear your introduction of your dad.
Amberly Gourlay: Yeah, thank you for having me. Yes, so we are originally from South Africa and we moved to the US a year ago now. My dad's been in ministry, like in terms of vocation, but also just he makes everything ministry, how he loves people and how he loves his city and wherever he finds himself. So he served for I think 14 years in South Africa at our church in leadership. And he took over from an interim pastor, but before that was my grandpa.
There's a legacy of ministry. He moved here and now it's been cool to watch Him and watch God just use Him and even just see the legacy of all who came before Him in Him and then also in me as I've personally experienced it.
Jeff Zaugg: For sure, thank you for the introduction. And go ahead, George, introducing your daughter.
George Gourlay: Well, Amberly is now 23 and we were actually moving to the US when we found out we were pregnant with Amberly the first time. That was, as I say, about 24 years ago. And I was hoping to actually do Bible college. Leanne had done Bible college here and I was hoping to come and start that journey myself. Then we found out we had this little one on the way and so things changed.
But it's been good because she challenges and provokes and encourages me on all things biblical. So I feel like I'm getting my schooling in and through the years. But Amberly's been a joy. She started off quite quiet and almost timid, I'd say. And she's become this bold, courageous, adventurous, spontaneous, taking ground for the kingdom sort of lady. And yeah, we've just been incredibly proud of just how she's applied herself academically and just got the highest honors at her university up to this point. She's going into a new season in Boston and just love the way she's approaching it, taking hold of that for which God has taken hold of her. And so it gives, yeah, it gives my father's heart joy just to see that courage instilled in his kids to not only pursue God, but pursue that which he's put in them for the kingdom. And so I see that outplaying and I'm excited to watch the journey continue to unfold.
On Courage and Faith
Jeff Zaugg: Amberly, I wanted to actually double down on what your dad just said around courage, because as I have gotten to know you, part of it was I had the joy of watching your speech on graduation day, your commencement speech, right?
Amberly Gourlay: Yes.
Jeff Zaugg: You sharing a charge to your fellow graduates. And I feel like we have a couple options at the macro level: we can either lean forward, lean in with faith, with courage, follow God's bigger yes, live a bigger life. And you didn't use that language of bigger versus smaller, but we can shrink back with fear. We can shrink back to play it safe. We can pursue small dreams versus big dreams. And you shared, I mean, your heart was just bursting in that moment of like, "let's, here I am, send me" these words from the book of Isaiah. And it was so fun for me, because it's the heart of this ministry. We want dads to lean into a bigger story versus a safe, cautious one because we know that it trickles down to our kids. So I'd love to hear just maybe a little bit on why is that burning within you? Like what caused that? To say, I believe with faith, I want to press in with courage versus play it safe.
Amberly Gourlay: I love that you highlight the fact that it's a choice. Like you have the two options before you. You could go big and step out in faith and take a risk, or I could choose to stay comfortable. And I really like how you sum that up. And I think as the verse, "here I am, send me," my first year of college, God really revealed that verse to me and revealed Isaiah's heart to me. And slowly but surely he's been peeling back layers of what that really means.
And I think even your perspective on it has peeled back another layer of that choice of you can either choose to step out. And I think that's the most Christ-like thing you can do because it's choosing, even though I know I don't have the means or don't see how this could work out, I trust you as Lord. And so I think it just became almost like a natural thing of like, if I'm going to choose God, I have to choose that path in a sense of courage and of faith.
And I must say, like, as I begin to know Him more, it almost becomes like I'm on the sideline watching Him do the things. And so even in like the speech at commencement, I kept struggling with like, "God, just, I know this is an important word and I know this is what has marked my faith journey at Vanguard, but I don't feel the weight of what I'm saying. Like just I pray that it would come across."
And it's amazing because I think in a lot of those moments, I don't necessarily feel like an "aha" or buzz of like, "wow, that was really powerful." But I think it's so affirming for me to know like it's coming through and that the heart of God is coming through. And it is almost like I just watch on the sidelines of what He's doing in my life.
And I think of the verse, I think it's in 2 Corinthians where He talks about being transformed from glory to glory. And it's a reflection of Him and His glory. And so I think in that way, as you begin to spend more time in the Word and more time just knowing who He is, it becomes almost this natural thing. But it definitely doesn't come without hardship. I think a lot of the time my body is trying to catch up for what my spirit is willing to do. And so I have to also remember in that to rest and to not strive.
But I think it's just so much fun getting to choose Him and choose the big adventurous things. It's just a journey of just having fun with the Lord and trusting Him to be shepherd and really taking it wherever He leads you, He will provide. And so it's really just you just have to remind yourself daily, "God, if you're taking me here, you're going to provide for me here." And so it is courage and it is faith, but also it's also the power and strength of the Holy Spirit.
So that's, and I honestly attribute so much of that to inheritance because I think of all the faith leaders before me in my own family line who demonstrated that. And so I have the privilege of that being all I know, you know, like I've always known Jesus. I've always known people who move in faith. And so for me, it's my normal. And so I guess, yeah, thinking in that way is just the more you grow an intimacy with the Lord, the more it becomes a natural thing and how much it will benefit those that come after you, even as a father, like the courage you take to walk in obedience and walk in faith will create a foundation for your children, for your daughters to then see like, "that's my normal, like choosing Him is all I know." So it's definitely a grace.
The Pioneer Heart
Jeff Zaugg: Well, it's something I've observed about your dad in this chapter. Most dads, career-wise, when kids are in junior high, high school, college, are not taking big risks career-wise. And then if you add moving to a new continent and a career restart with an unknown, "what's next?" I'd just love to hear a little bit of how that prayer journey with your wife, and actually, could you just give context to about the age of your two boys, just so everybody knows kind of context.
George Gourlay: Yeah, my son Luke, he's turning 20 and he's at Southeastern University and he's loving it. He's on the soccer team. He's really enjoying the stage, really coming alive and all the things of God. Not that he wasn't, but just in that kind of setting with amazing worship and friends to walk with. Yeah, I think he hosted his first home group or connect group in the last two weeks and he spoke there. So yeah, just loving seeing him stepping into all that he's called to be.
And then my youngest is 10. We got a big age gap because my dad passed away when we were planning the third and with having to take over Harvest Church in Durban, South Africa, yeah, just the challenges of leadership, of a new role, of trying to establish things that were maybe not given the time to be fully established. We pushed pause but we're enjoying little Mitch being 10. He's keeping us young and on our toes and so yeah, that's the two boys.
And then in terms of us coming, yeah, it was a big challenge, particularly for me. I like things to be just a solid platform. I like things to be moving smoothly, no jarring, sudden movements. And we had always had a word spoken over us that we had grown to provoke us to move. We'd get uncomfortable in comfortable places and grow comfortable in uncomfortable places. And we had that two or three times word for word.
And it came to a season where I think in my early 40s, I was thinking, "Am I established enough? Am I where I should be at this age?" And we were finding just in terms of harvest and what harvest was becoming and its influence and in its stability, just an amazing base church to operate from. And yet we felt the shift happening in us. And so I got more ready to take risk in the years that followed my 40s. And yeah, we just thought it's time.
And Leanne made the call. I'd had a neck operation. I was lying and I was on some meds. She said, Leanne being my wife, and she said, "George, it takes a while to get into the US. If we're really feeling this in the Lord, we need to respond now." And so she got me to sign it when I wasn't at my most coherent. And yeah, we're just excited.
And it was that. It was uncomfortable. I missed everything familiar. Didn't realize how rooted I was in the last season. But I'd been part of that church since I was 16, 21 years on the ministry team, leading for 14. And yeah, my first six months here, every night, I probably dreamt back to everything that I'd stewarded in previous season and thought, "Am I meant to go back to it?"
Yeah. And funny enough, my kids in that moment were encouraging me and they're saying, "Dad, you made this call for us. You made it for the family. You made it for future." They said, "You're done. There are reasons that you felt that in God, but also that you wanted to pursue what you were dreaming for." And that's what kind of kept me on course. And once that six months went, then the weight shifted to looking forward, not backward. And so I'm grateful to be standing here a year and one month down the line.
In the US, we had always dreamt of being here. I grew up wanting to live in the US, wanting to marry an American. So my wife keeps reminding me, Leanne keeps reminding me, I've got everything I was dreaming for.
But yeah, one of my ancestors, Sir Lee Schulett, he came out from England to South Africa and he took the risk of coming to pioneer something that he had believed would be a blessing, not only to him, but to his generations. And I came to a point when I realized I could live in the inheritance of that and the legacy, which is beautiful. But I also felt that we were called to pioneer something as a family where we had been starting to instigate fresh inheritance and legacy in another nation. And so that was part of the courageous call to step forward and having to muster that up in the Lord for a new season.
Jeff Zaugg: The word, I actually had that like on the tip of my tongue to say "pioneer" when you said it. The value and the imagery of a pioneer and what it takes to forge new territory, to risk, to leave what's comfortable, to figure out how to gather resources, develop new community, put down roots, like pioneering. I'm convinced that dads who in some sphere have a pioneer heart, it's a gift to their kids. Because the pioneers, it takes the kids working alongside, right? Like there's no way those pioneer families when I think about early in the United States pioneers like you have to have all the kids helping versus the "play it safe" the "pursue comfort" approach. Do either of you have any anything to add around the theme of a dad who is a pioneer?
George Gourlay: Well, just when I look back, I mean, I look at not only my... that would have been my great-great-grandfather, Lee Schulett. And he came out both to start farming, but also to minister. He was a lay preacher in the Wesleyan movement. But I look at my own father, who had a radical encounter with the Lord. He was a chartered accountant, climbing the ladder just in terms of business and made a director. And he had an incredible encounter with God. And he stepped out and he said he went to earning 10% of what he had previously earned stepping into ministry. And then it was all systems going, never looked back. And he planted numerous churches, he encouraged and supported numerous churches. We moved all across the nation of South Africa. And so he really embodied that pioneering kingdom man who was always advancing, not just staying, not just shepherding, which he was an amazing shepherd, but also that pioneering aspect, as you've mentioned, the more apostolic ministry. And so I definitely see that. And I guess, as you've encouraged, we're getting to live a bit of our moment of that as well.
On Distraction and Vulnerability
Jeff Zaugg: One thing you mentioned is the word distraction, Amberly. You mentioned this force of distraction from God's greater calling. Yes, this is back to your commencement speech. And if I think of a pioneer gathering resources, getting ready to set out charting maps, and maybe it's not like fully derailing the mission, but if the enemy, the accuser, Satan, can just get a dad distracted with lesser vision, lesser mission, just distraction, then it's mission failure, right? The pioneer never goes forth if they're just distracted. Would you add anything around the force of distraction and how for a dad or for yourself, like distraction can pull us the wrong direction?
Amberly Gourlay: Yeah, even as you were speaking dad I just was reminded of this quote that it's like "you're never so vulnerable as when you trust" and I think from like a father perspective or even just a male perspective of that theme of vulnerability and how it is something that you really have to push into and it goes against culture as well even as a father and I think from the aspect of trust when you admit "God, I need you, you're everything I need." You have to strip away any bravado or any pride or anything and say like, "you are everything I need." Even as a father being the one expected to provide and to protect his family, I think I've experienced the privilege of a father who knows who our Father is in reality, you know? And so I think trusting is a big part of that.
I think distraction can come in as insecurity of where you don't have enough finances to move your family across the world, or you don't have enough behind you. You don't have a community to hold you. And I think it's such a sacrifice to the Lord when you say, "even if I don't have physically what I think I need, I trust you to provide." And I've just seen God doing that. It's like I have my earthly father as my provider, but he's first and foremost, a steward. He is not provider in and of itself, but he stewards what God provides. And so I trust him as a steward and as a shepherd, but ultimately I know and I trust God above that as my father to provide.
And so I think in that sense of like the encouragement to fathers is it is so much more, I guess I look up to it so much more when my dad is vulnerable in the sense of like, sending me back to Father God and reminding me He is a steward, but God has all I need. And I think that can look like something that maybe isn't humble or isn't, I guess I'm trying to find the words to explain. Maybe it can look like a weakness. But I think that is where I see the most strength is when my dad has always pointed back to "you go to Him. Like that is who you go to." And I can only imagine how difficult that is as a father because you have to rely on that because of what culture tells you to do. But yeah, it's been the biggest blessing to be led in that way. And now I know, like I think it's established such a firm foundation for me of I can always go back to my Heavenly Father and know that I have a really good earthly father that stewards that.
Jeff Zaugg: What a gift. Our earthly fathers and grandfathers, we're going to miss it. We're going to miss it at times. We have this perfect Heavenly Father who never misses it and is always there and steady.
Reflecting on Previous Generations
Jeff Zaugg: I'd love for you, George, to think about your dad for a moment. I read a little bit about a letter that he wrote to you when he was, I think it was in the window of time before he passed away. But just thinking back to things that you're like, "I saw this in my dad and I want to carry this forward to my three kids." So that's that first, which should be kind of the strengths or things that like, yes, I want to copy. But then there's the other side of like, no, these are some areas that like I get to grow forward in a new area that he didn't, wasn't maybe able to show up as well. Again, we're not, none of us are perfect. But could you hit maybe an example on either side or a couple examples on each side? And then in a moment, Amberly, I'd love for you to reflect a little bit on some of your dad's strengths and things that like you hope maybe a future when you're a mom someday, your husband would lean into copying your dad. So we're gonna hit that step second, but let's go to your grandpa first, or to your dad.
George Gourlay: Just before I do I just want to jump on something you said and you're talking about distraction. And I'm reminded of a C.S. Lewis quote. He said "the long dull monotonous years of middle-aged prosperity are excellent campaigning weather for the devil" and so it's the sense of knowing that when you get overly comfortable overly established in a sense of apathy in that, that's where the enemy wants to keep you because it stops you from being effective and in a sense dangerous for the kingdom. "The long dull monotonous years of middle-age prosperity are excellent campaigning weather for the devil."
Jeff Zaugg: Yeah, very powerful, C.S. Lewis.
George Gourlay: To come back, so that was one of the things I had to step beyond. To come back to what you shared here with my father, as I say, he had a radical encounter with the Lord, changed in a night. I think he had been having an affair at the time, doing incredibly well from a financial vocation perspective. And then my mom had been praying and he came home one night, got on his knees and said, "I want God, I want you and I want the kids."
Those three things from being an unbeliever never shifted from that within a year and a half years in ministry. And so when I look at that, that's inspiring in and of itself just to know the legacy lived out there, it never shifted or changed. I wasn't born yet.
Jeff Zaugg: Were you a young boy at this? You got the full, "I want God, I want my marriage, I want the kids." What prompted it? Was it just divine intervention or was it...?
George Gourlay: I think my mom had been praying for five years. She had heard a testimony at church of another couple that had prayed and their marriage was saved and she felt the Lord say, "this will be your story." And so she took that, she held to it, she prayed and within the last two weeks of that five years, it intensified dramatically. But then she knew she was contending for something and that's when it shifted and he came home and she didn't know what time he was coming home, why he was coming home because as I say, he had been all over but he came home and... Yeah, got on his knees and said "I want these three things" and she didn't actually think it was real. But then he started living it out and he kept praying and saying "Lord I don't know how you can forgive me for the way I've been living previously" and he got this phrase that was going through his mind and sounded Latin to him and being an accountant he worked with some lawyers and he went to a lawyer that he knew and he said "what does this phrase mean it sounds Latin" and the lawyer said "yes, it means be sure of the Lord your God."
And so he just had this real sense and that cemented it for him. And then, yeah, so I got the benefit of being born into the family when my parents were in ministry. My brother and sister, quite a few years older than me, they experienced the more traumatic side. My sister's in ministry now. My brother's also in the church, not from a full-time perspective, but part of the church. And yeah, I think that my folks had said, "We're not going to be able to afford to have another child because we're going into ministry." But then I arrived a few months later. Surprise. Surprise.
And for me, I must say gave my life to the Lord at the age of three. I think you might have heard me sharing. I was sitting at a breakfast table and my dad had said, you know, I said, "I want to go live with Jesus. I enjoyed my folks, but I said, I'd rather go live there." And they said, "No, when you're done here on earth and you pass away, then you go to heaven." And so I remember at three holding a knife to my chest, thinking "if I just push this in, I can go and live with Jesus." And my dad counseled me through that. I wasn't a suicidal three year old, I was just desperate to be with Jesus. And that night he got me to pray the prayer and asked Jesus to be Lord of my life. I think it was that same night I had quite a clear dream that I remember clearly now of the Lord kind of laying out purpose for which I'm walking in currently. So that was an amazing just in terms of inspiration that came through who my dad was and was modeled through nothing that he did. He wasn't trying to tell me to give my life at that age or to be so in love with Jesus. He just was. He was.
I would walk in the house and I'd see his office door open at the age of three, I remember it clearly. And I'd hear him worshiping or I'd see his Bible open or just these moments and these moments were invitations and the invitations were to love Jesus and that was imparted. And I remember him quite clearly saying to me as a youngster, "You need to love Jesus even more than you love me." And as a young boy, I knew what that meant. I knew "dad, what you're telling me is you love Jesus more than you love me." But it didn't matter because it was this bigger picture and the desire of our hearts. So yeah, there was an amazing encouragement in who my dad was.
And I guess one of the things I'd look that would I would miss in the parenting or in the fathering of my dad was more intentional moments. There was the intentionality of inviting me into spaces and places, but I long for, not that he didn't offer it or give it, but I would have longed for more intentional moments of being raised in a way that I got to ask him, glean from him, learn from that mentoring that would come, not just the fathering, but that, in a sense, mentoring in my journey with the Lord. I got that in the moments of just asking, but kind of that intentional discipling. And I'm sure he would have loved to have me ask, and I'm sure that it was on his heart. And I didn't think of it at the time, but looking back, that would have been amazing.
Jeff Zaugg: Wow, Amberly, from your perspective, I know you were quite young, four or five, when your grandfather passed away. Anything else you've even just heard from your mom, your dad, your siblings, like aunts and uncles, about your grandpa that you'd point back to and be like, "that was like, that's the kind of thing a loving dad would do"?
Amberly Gourlay: Yeah, I think it was so kind of God because I think it was two summers ago now back to South Africa. And it was just like he was in my face. Like I think that was the most real I've ever felt him and connected to him. Sorry, I'm emotional.
You know, it's so funny, like, now that I get older, God really, like, He's so intentional and creative in how He shows up. And I just think it's so random that one random summer I go back to South Africa, He's just everywhere. Like, I just felt like I got to know Him. And I was far when He passed, so I didn't really know Him before that. But I have memories with Him and...
Everyone at the church that summer was like I was stepping in to like speaking more. I was serving at this like I was like 16 at the Bible study and I would go share like what I was learning with all the elderly and they knew my grandpa personally and so they would just tell me stories about him and yeah, just it was so sweet of God, but I think from his legacy just the fervency of his ministry.
And that radical encounter, I just, that has completely shifted our whole family line. And I think that's why I'm emotional, because I think one person's choice to choose God and one husband's choice to choose his wife and to choose his children literally changes generations. And I'm testament. And so I think going back to South Africa those last two times, I was just so overly aware of the inheritance I have and the legacy. And so incredibly grateful now that I'm older and I understand what those things mean. I understand like what affairs mean and what choosing business over your family means. I think it just was, I was so sober to what that all meant. And because of that, so much more grateful that he was willing to choose God above himself. And so I think that's what I take from his legacy and even my grandmother being a wife that chose Him and chose to pursue God and chose humility in receiving Him back into the home, knowing all that He did, but seeing what God was doing and seeing that He was a new creation in God rather than holding Him to His sin. And so I think even in that sense of just God's grace and favor, because that's not the normal with stories like that. And I'm just grateful God rescued Him.
Jeff Zaugg: The rescue proceeded by five years of prayerful pursuit. I mean, I love your grandma for that reason. I just like I want to be in areas that I long for. Do I have that kind of prayerful pursuit? Amberly, when you said "his face was everywhere," I'm thinking about trips that I have back to northern Wisconsin, my dad passed away about five years ago. When people bring him up... exactly. What a gift. But it doesn't come without local church. It's not that common that someone even it doesn't matter if the person's a lead pastor or not, like just being in a church community where someone is serving others, their life is being rubbed off on other lives, which brings their legacy forward to grandchildren. Really? I mean, that's kind what I'm gathering. I want, I guess, to encourage, you know, any of the dads listening, like if you know someone who's, you know, someone who's passed away and you get a chance to interact with their kids, like don't shy away from bringing it up and talking about that, right? Because it truly is a gift.
Amberly Gourlay: Yeah.
Reflecting on Current Generation
Jeff Zaugg: Yeah. I'd love to go into kind of the same question next generation down and talk about your dad for a moment. And it can be from your perspective, you can speak on behalf of your brothers, you know, you can be some anonymous third party, you know, truly like things that you're specifically grateful for. And then the other side is just like, things you know, your dad is still growing and still needing a little more of this style. More of this would have been amazing and still is amazing. So both sides would be amazing.
Amberly Gourlay: Yeah, I think for me, when I was in leadership in university, they would always do this like in training, they wanted to know what makes you you. And so they would go into a family line and they would go into your experience and where you've lived to see like, why are you the leader you are today? And I think especially I'm very interested in women's role in the church and in politics. And that's something I study a lot.
And so my previous roles, SGA president, whenever those conversations would come up of like, "what makes you you?" A lot of the time I would bring up my dad and I would say "he shared the stage with me. I never felt like I was less than, I never felt intimidated. I felt supported and encouraged." And I think again, it's something like as I get older, I realized the privilege of that even in a church space. But just the invitation to go in that word again of being invited to be fully who I am and invited to sharing stages that he himself stands on with more wisdom and more knowledge than I have, but he's willing to share with me. And I think it requires vulnerability on his part too, because when people see me, they see him and they see his parenting. And so I just think of that as well, the risk and the courage in his own life. But yeah, just that profoundly changed my trajectory.
And it's part of like my confidence and my ability to lead. And then I also think when I'm looking forward, that's something I would love to do is to create space for myself and my children to be seen. It's so easy to like hide away because of the vulnerability it requires when you are seen. And I think as a pastor, even more so because you hold such a high standard. But I think the courage to be seen and to lead, it has so much inheritance for us. And so, yeah, I think that is something I've definitely taken away. And I see my brothers too in their confidence to lead. And just how secure I am in who I am. I think a lot of it is because I've seen someone who's secure in who they are. And I've seen what that looks like physically. So yeah, the security, I hope that that would be something that I pass down. And that's even in someone I choose to marry that that would be something that would define them is that they're secure in who God says they are. So identity, I love that you mentioned that at the beginning, because I think that is the starting point.
And then in terms of change, it's hard to say in terms of change. I think naturally I'm more of, I guess this more like a surface level thing, but I'm more people centered in the sense of like, I get my energy from people and I love going on adventures and I love going to new nations and I love, I love, yeah, just being uncomfortable and adventure too. So I like the kind of scarier places that my dad doesn't want me to go to, the kind of scarier, maybe more unsafe nations, but I feel a lot of calling in those areas. And so I think that would be something I'd probably shift is I think taking that adventure to the next level because I believe it's a grace in my life. I don't necessarily know if it was something my mom and dad were called to, but because I feel called to that, it's something I hope I can step more into. So yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: I want to just offer one thing that you shared, then George, I want you to reflect on your self-reflection as well. You wrote or spoke, I just had this in my notes, your dad brought real security from the Father heart of God. So at some point, I dug into some old messages that you preached and you said that he brought real security from the Father heart of God. That's kind of exactly what you shared, reflecting on what your dad did, so you were reflecting on your dad and then you reflect, the pass through happened, which I celebrate. George, I'd love to hear for you to reflect on, it feels like this is an area that I'm really grateful I've put an emphasis in your fatherhood and this is an area that's still under construction. I'm still trying to like press in more and realize that it's an area, it's a gap that I want to strengthen and shore up as you're raising Mitch who's 10, right? Yeah, I'd love to hear both sides from you.
George Gourlay: Yeah, I realize I didn't answer your other question about my dad with the letter. When they discovered he had brain cancer, before they were gonna do the operation, he wrote a letter to each of us, to the children and their spouses. And he just said, it was a little bit like a Pauline type letter where he wrote and he just went through memories and through our childhood of moments that he loved and remembered with us individually. And then he brought a challenge. And he said, "these are areas, George, where I see that you maybe not living up to the fullness of what you're called to. And I wanna call you back to identity and destiny." It wasn't calling out the shortcomings but calling up into identity and destiny.
And then at the end of the letter, he just wrote encouragement because of what he saw and why he wanted to bring that challenge. And so that's a letter that I still have. I get to read over and it's a great encouragement. But yeah, to come back to me, when I look at my fathering, I do definitely see the security that he brought in terms of identity, not just built into him, as I said in the journey, was building it into my relationship with Jesus and our Heavenly Father and just the Holy Spirit's nearness and presence.
And so that I'm hugely grateful for and I do believe I've been able to live that out. Where I feel that even reflecting on my own relationship with my father, maybe some of the things I long for with him, I haven't actually instituted or expressed my relationship with my kids where I would have been more intentional of taking them through just some foundational aspects of the gospel. They'd get it on a Sunday when they came to church. They'd get it in kids ministry, which I knew the curriculum, but to actually do that intentionally as dad and not just leave it to a message, a sermon or to a member of your team to bring it along in terms of youth and Sunday school. And so grateful for those champions who lead in those areas and serve, but not to abdicate, but to see the privilege. And so that definitely would be something I'm gonna really try and be intentional with carrying forward. And I love John Tyson speaks about intentionality and involvement. And so to really bring that forward.
That is something I'm aware of and I think my kids, as they've started to come alive, and they have always been, but just with a new sense of maturity and passion, they're kind of reminding me of that as well. I'm getting the reminders, "dad, you haven't prayed enough today, haven't read the word enough today, haven't encouraged us enough today," and so they're starting to press in.
And you can either feel in deficit or you can kind of realize, "no, actually I want to step into this new season of what fatherhood looks like with kids that are out the house and in university and leading in their own spheres while being intentional to put that into little Mitch at 10 years old as well."
Jeff Zaugg: That's good, yeah, because there's no loss in God's perspective when it comes to a son in college and the ability to still pursue their heart, disciple, train, equip. The whole launch idea is perpetual. We give the gift as fathers, right? So that's what I love about God is that in any moment that we choose to add action to that area of discipleship, I am an ideator where I'll think, plan, launch, and then a few months down the road, I'm doing a lot less of that than I was when I first launched it. So that's a real challenge, which is nice about recording podcasts. Now you've actually shared "I want to bring this" I'm going to bring this and you get a bunch of accountability.
George Gourlay: I've got it. And please, Amberly's my accountability. She expresses that for me.
Jeff Zaugg: Perfect.
Advice for Jeff
Jeff Zaugg: I wanted to end our time with asking for personal advice for me in my phase of raising four little girls. Just from your perspective, hey, add a little more focus here. Think about this a little more. Hey, do this. Like any, any practical ideas, because you've got a lot more life experience than my oldest daughter. And you got about twice as many dad years as I do, George. Like just anything that, and it can be something that you feel like you guys got it right, so you want to pass it on, but it doesn't have to be. It could be like an observation of like, I'm learning. I'm leaning into this. You should put a little more focus there. So any just dad tips, dad advice for Jeff.
George Gourlay: It'll be hard to give you advice. Just because I see what you're doing and it's just a joy to behold how you are in terms of intentionality, involvement, but not only that, I just see the fun that you have, the adventure you've invited your family into and just living life to the full, fully alive in who God's created you to be and what you're believing for them. So it would be hard, but I'll try.
So my advice would be as your daughters start growing in age, don't allow, well, I won't say don't allow. I'll say my challenge was that I wanted to respect Amberly in becoming the lady that she is. And I probably gave her a little bit too much space in that, in a sense of just being lovingly affectionate and showing that in every moment. I think she knows that I love her without a shadow of a doubt. I think she knows that I affirm her and I'm there for her and encourage her. But to take the intentional moments of saying it heart to heart, you preach that in a sermon. So I'm preaching back to you in your own sermon. Heart to heart, telling them what they mean to you, who you see them to be, speaking destiny over them, and also just showing affection and loving them, not only emotionally and with your words, but physically giving them a hug and letting them know that they can adventure out there, be spontaneous out there, take mountains out there, but they've got a home, they've got a dad, they've got loving arms to come back to. Thank you. That would be my encouragement.
Jeff Zaugg: And I would just add from what you shared earlier is the letter, like actually maybe putting some of that into letter form. I have not done that well as far as putting written words to some of that. But then when you mentioned earlier, maybe gave too much space. You would maybe pursue those moments with Amberly if you go back to 11 years old. More of those moments, closeness, that hug, those words. Yeah, turn that dial up.
George Gourlay: Definitely.
Amberly Gourlay: Yeah, I think I have experienced those things. So hearing you say that, yeah, I'm just like, but I have experienced it. But I totally understand from a perspective of maybe this is the season we're in as I'm older. You're looking back on the nostalgia and the years of like there were so many moments that I could have grasped. But I have experienced it. So I do want to say that. But I think for me, something I've appreciated is my parents giving me the space to be uncomfortable and maybe giving me independence to figure it out with God. I think I really have appreciated them allowing me to just move to a new country when maybe they were a little bit hesitant and a little bit concerned. And they definitely were moments where I'm calling my dad and I'm like, "dad, this is happening to my body. I feel sick. I'm scared of what's going to happen." And I can only imagine being on the other side of the phone, like so far away, knowing you cannot do anything. Like you're so far.
So I appreciate them giving me the space to figure it out and trusting God with me. And so I'd probably say that's the biggest thing is allowing me to be uncomfortable and to have to figure it out with God. I think that was such a big thing in growth for me. And it obviously, as you begin to be uncomfortable and you have to go to God for things because your physical parents are far away, you begin to experience so much more of who He is.
Because I just think of being more dependent on Him allows you to see more of Him, you know. And so I think that, I think allowing them the space to kind of figure it out and knowing that those seasons will come where they will be far away or they will be doing it on their own in a sense. But that God draws so close in those moments. And I think I look back at the seasons where I was far away from them and that especially that first summer and I just think about how close God was.
And I just know how much he delighted in that season with me and how much I delighted in him. And so now looking back, I realize how hard that must have been, but I appreciate it.
Closing Prayer
Jeff Zaugg: Yeah, thank you. I treasure these conversations and I'm just grateful, so grateful for both of you. Amberly, I was going to ask if you would pray over all the dads, including the two of us, just pray God's heart, his wisdom, his ideas, but also just even just pray that we would put something into action versus just intent.
Amberly Gourlay: Okay, I would love to. Thank you. God, I thank you so much for this time. I thank you for us just being able to gather around a table and just commune with each other, but also with you. I just acknowledge Holy Spirit that you're here and that nothing that was said is coincidence and no person that is listening here today is coincidence. I thank you that you're perfectly intentional.
And so God, I just pray right now for the person who's listening right now. I just pray that any words or phrases that just caught in their spirit, they would linger on those and they would ask you, God, what you're saying through them and to them. God, I thank you for this podcast. I thank you for the ministry that it provides to fathers. I thank you that it is so intentionally created by you. And I thank you for Jeff's courage to lead in it and lean into it and be vulnerable. And I thank you for the change that it is already pioneering in hearts that listen and that interact. And God, I just pray that you would do tenfold what you've already done and that you would expand this ministry, even as there are so many fathers, Christian or not Christian, who need to partake in this ministry. So I thank you for what you're doing and I honor you for that. And I thank you for the legacy and inheritance that this will provide, God. And God, I just pray.
that as we've heard today, fatherhood requires vulnerability. It requires being led by you, the shepherd. And it requires stepping out in boldness and courage. And so I pray today, Lord, that as we've heard about maybe how hard it is to be intentional, but how necessary, I just pray that you would give physical opportunities for dads to step out in vulnerability this week and even this year. And I thank you that they would do it with courage. I thank you for divine empowering by your Holy Spirit to go out in boldness. So Lord, I thank you for what you're doing and I thank you for this ministry. And I just thank you, Lord, that it would fall on good soil and that it would produce good fruits. I thank you for all of this in Jesus' name. Amen.
Closing
Jeff Zaugg: Thank you so much for joining us for episode 401 with George and Amberly Gourlay. The conversation links, the notes, the action steps, the quotes, the transcripts are all gonna be listed at dadawesome.org/podcast. And then just look for the most recent episode, 401. Thank you for leaning in today. Thank you for listening with your whole heart. Thank you for being a dad who refuses to have just good intent, but instead we are at DadAwesome.
We are dads who have a bias towards action. So I'm praying for each of you. What is our next step? Where are we going to lean in this week? Where are we going to add intentionality? I'm praying for you. I'm cheering for you. Have a great week, guys.
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"One person's choice to choose God and one husband's choice to choose his wife and to choose his children literally changes generations." - Amberly Gourlay
"The long dull monotonous years of middle-aged prosperity are excellent campaigning weather for the devil." - C.S. Lewis (quoted by George)
"I have the privilege of a father who knows who our Father is in reality... He is not provider in and of itself, but he stewards what God provides." - Amberly Gourlay
"You need to love Jesus even more than you love me... dad, what you're telling me is you love Jesus more than you love me. But it didn't matter because it was this bigger picture." - George reflecting on his father's words
"As you begin to be uncomfortable and you have to go to God for things because your physical parents are far away, you begin to experience so much more of who He is." - Amberly Gourlay
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