399 | Seeing Your Kids, Feeling with Them, and Delighting in Who They Are (Dr. Jake Smith - Part 2)

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Episode Description

The battle for your attention as a dad is real, and 70% of Christian leaders won't finish well. In part two of this critical conversation, Dr. Jake Smith reveals the attunement triangle that creates lasting relationships with your kids and how to escape the smothering grind that leads to burnout, flame out, or tap out. You'll discover why seeing your kids underneath their behavior changes everything and how to move from survival-mode parenting to deeply connected fatherhood.

  • Dr. Jake Smith is the founder of Plumb Line, a ministry dedicated to helping men and women live with their whole hearts through healing, wholeness, and purpose. A former pastor of 21 years, Jake now focuses on helping people integrate what he calls their "spiritual anatomy"—the four systems of heart, soul, mind, and strength that Jesus perfectly demonstrated. He and his wife have three children: two sons (19 and 17) and a 14-year-old daughter. Jake is passionate about helping fathers move beyond survival mode to become integrated, whole-hearted leaders in their homes.

    • Attunement is the key to all healthy, deeply connected relationships: "I see you, I feel with you, I suffer alongside you, and I delight in you."

    • The smothering grind pushes 70% of dads toward three outcomes: burnout, flame out, or tap out—and none of them are acceptable.

    • Stop teaching your kids to survive you and start teaching them to thrive in the world by moving beyond behavior modification.

    • The attunement triangle consists of attunement at the top, with containment and repair as the foundational supports.

    • You have two escape routes from life's river: hyperphoria (crushing it through activity) or hypophoria (checking out through apathy)—both lead to destruction.

    • Your kids need you to stay in the river of life, feeling what's yours to feel and facing what's yours to face.

  • JAKE SMITH

    First of all, attunement is the key to all healthy, deeply connected, lasting relationships. If there is one thing that's going to ensure that the relationship, whether it's with my wife, whether it's with one of my kids, friendships, neighbors, it's gonna ensure that we remain healthy and deeply connected and the relationship perseveres and lasts. Attunement is the thing, the one thing that's gonna do that. He says, here's what attunement is. I see you, I'm willing to feel with you, I'm willing to suffer.

    alongside of you and I delight in you.

    JEFF ZAUGG

    Welcome back to Dad Awesome. Today, episode 399, I have Dr. Jake Smith joining for part two. Hey, quickly, if you missed last week, it's gonna make a lot of sense to hit pause and go back to episode 398 for the first half of this conversation. Today we've got about 25 minutes of going deeper into attunement like we just chatted about in the intro, but also we're gonna hit the smothering grind. We're gonna talk about the grind,

    out, flame out, tap out this warfare that's coming after men, coming after us as dads. This is an important, critical conversation as we head into the next chapter of this ministry at Dad Awesome. So I'm so thankful you're listening today. Quickly want to invite you guys. We've got four spots left for the next cohort of the Dad Awesome Accelerator. I think we have 13 guys that have already opted in to one of our fall accelerators.

    A few spots though, if you're praying about this, it's a six week sprint. We've already graduated 50 dads and the response is it's overwhelming how helpful this six week sprint has been for dads to just level up and bring everything we've learned in 400 episodes of this ministry into this short coaching cohort. So send me a message or go to dadawesome.org slash coaching.

    Speaker 1 (02:33.454)

    to learn more about this upcoming cohort. It kicks off here in just two weeks. You need to apply the next couple days here if you want to join this next cohort. I am so thankful you're joining us today. Buckle up. Welcome to part two of My Conversation, episode 399 with Dr. Jake Smith.

    Speaker 1 (03:01.656)

    Jake, some of your deeper work, I know even recently around the grind and this like drive that we as dads, we as men, my project list in this sphere, in that sphere, in the home front, my marriage, on the house and the finances, like the drive and the short-term subtle, like you're a good man because you've knocked more things off the checklist. What you're describing with Jesus and his pace, his rhythms, his priorities.

    If I truly would trust him, I would disconnect from the grind and be able to show up in a, what was the word? Nourished versus malnourished, right? Love for you to connect these two principles a little bit around this force that our culture says we have to, and we put on ourselves often as well, grind it out, grind it out, and how destructive that path is.

    Yeah.

    Speaker 2 (03:53.55)

    Yeah, well, first of all, know, Dallas Willard to this point was once asked if you could describe Jesus in one word, what word would it be? And Willard said, relaxed. He's just so relaxed, you know, and I'm not like I'm supposed to be coming like him and I'm not. There's a hard truth. A guy named Robert Clinton is a professor at Fuller Seminary, did research over like close to 4,000 case studies.

    about how Christian leaders finish. If you're a dad, you're a Christian leader. You're your That's true. He discovered something shocking that only three out of 10 leaders finish well, which means 70 % won't. And what does that mean, finishing well versus not finishing well? Well, if Jesus has this thing that he desires for us called abundant life, and as his agents,

    that is also what we're partnering to bring others, our families first and foremost, this thing called abundant life. The enemy that's trying to steal abundant life from us is something I personified as the smothering grind of life. I can hear it now, maybe listeners go, that's not our enemy. Our enemies are roaring lions seeking someone to devour our enemies, spiritual forces of evil in the heavenly realms. And it's like, okay, I get that. But it's just.

    For me, it's lazy philosophy, it's lazy theology, it's lazy writing to just say, the devil is our enemy or something. It's like, sure, that's true, but how is the roaring lion going to steal from you, kill you, and destroy you? What are these systems, the spiritual forces in the heavenly realms are establishing to oppress you and keep you and your family and your relationship with your kids from this thing called abundance or abundant life? And so that's where I say this minion that is used, this tool that is used by him,

    is something called the smothering grind of life, who is very successful as evidenced by Clinton. It's gonna take 70 % of us out. And what it means when we get taken out is one of three things. Burnout is one outcome the smothering grind is pushing for. Flame out is the second, and that's not just this state of exhaustion and irritability all the time and being reduced to just like survival mode.

    Speaker 2 (06:10.946)

    that's burnout, but flame out is moral collapse. It's like I actually pull that rip cord and it's, had an affair, I embezzled money, I abused my power, know, those types of things. Or third, the third outcome the smothering grind is pushing for for us is something called tap out, which is quitting. And there's all kinds of quitting. There's literally, I'm leaving the marriage, I'm leaving the job, there's quiet quitting, I'll stay in the marriage, but we're parallel lives, roommates, I'm not.

    engaged or bringing myself to it. I'm just kind of enduring it. But there's also the ultimate quitting, which is embracing the comfort someone perceives death will bring. Quitting on yourself, quitting on your family, quitting on life by taking your own life, which is, it's unbelievable how many seemingly successful, high functioning men do that all the time, right? So that's what the grind, the smothering grind is pushing for. Burn out, flame out or tap out. And he does not care which one. If we hit one of those,

    He wins and we become part of the 70 % who does not run our race and finish.

    Whoa. And we use the metaphor of a hand grenade. When a dad actually chooses one of those three, they're handing and pulling the pin to a hand grenade that will shrapnel will get lodged in our kids that affects down to our grandkids, like great grandkids, it could be affected by a dad's decision. So if that stream or we're we're headed in that direction, we're swimming in that stream of burnout, like what?

    What would?

    Speaker 1 (07:40.302)

    Yeah, or I guess it's the grind, the general, one of those three areas. Like what is the escape hatch? Like tell us more, tell us more.

    Yeah, so there's one of two things that everybody listening, you can kind of use to evaluate yourself. There's a guy here in town named Chip Dodd, Dr. Chip Dodd, he's a clinical therapist. And he came up with this kind of this framework of this model called, he calls it Euphoria River. And being in Euphoria River is kind of what it means to be alive. It's what it feels like to be alive. And there's all kinds of stuff in that river.

    Certainly there's, you know, celebration and connection and, you know, joy and celebration and success and those types of things. But there's also loss and there's fear and there's hurt and there's loneliness and all of these types of things. It's all in the river. Like if I want to feel like what it's like to be alive, I got to be willing to be in that river and open myself.

    to feel all of those things and just show up to what life puts in front of me. But we don't like to be in that river. Many of us don't like what it feels like to be alive. We don't maybe have even the infrastructure to tolerate the river. And so we learn to escape it. We get out of the river on one of two banks. And so you guys listening, evaluate this. My first escape hatch, my first way out of the river is with a methodology called hyperphoria.

    which is just a fancy word for activity. It's like, I don't wanna feel what I feel. I don't wanna face what I face is going on in my family or at work, whatever it is. Yeah, so I'm gonna take on more work. I'm gonna stay busy even when I'm home and I have idle time to myself. I'm not sitting around like I'm reorganizing the garage. I'm like doing a project in the yard. I'm like working on the car. I'm gonna run a triathlon and I start like training for that. Stay in motion, stay ahead of all of this stuff that's in there, okay?

    Speaker 2 (09:37.496)

    This is called hyperphoria avoidance of life. And often the metaphor for that, when I ask people like, hey, how's it going? How's it going at work? How's it going? They'll say, crushing it. I'm crushing it. And that's perfect because it's not inaccurate. It's like, you're crushing life? Yeah, you are. You're crushing life. The idea is instead of living life, instead of experiencing life, I'm gonna conquer it. I'm gonna conquer life. Well, the problem with avoiding life

    with hyperphoria is it always leads to anxiety, often chronic, has to be medicated in some way, happens, has to be, whether that's, you know, through pharmaceuticals or it's through a glass of bourbon every night before bed. Like, you know, I gotta deal with that anxiety now, okay, in some way. Well, that sounds terrible. What's my other option?

    You know, like, well, if I don't want to avoid life in my own heart, my own feelings with hyperphoria, I can escape on the other bank, which is called hypophoria. And that's a fancy word for apathy avoidance of life. So if I'm conquering life on the hyperphoria side, I'm just withdrawing from life, checking out of life, numbing out of life on the hypophoria side. What's that look like? It looks like drinking too much. It looks like binge watching sports or Netflix. It looks like scrolling my phone.

    know, mindlessly for hours going down the rabbit hole of YouTube videos or like, you know, whatever it is, video games, you know, et cetera. And the problem with avoiding my own heart and feelings and avoiding life with that bank is it always leads to depression, a loss of meaning and purpose. know, life loses its luster. And so I have to evaluate myself constantly and ask myself, am I in the river with my kids, with my family, facing what's mine to face, feeling what's mine to feel, exploring those feelings?

    naming what I need, getting that need met in a healthy way, staying in that river. Am I doing that or am I engaging in activity avoidance or apathy avoidance? And the goal when the answer is, yeah, I'm avoiding my own heart and feelings and I'm avoiding my kids, I'm avoiding my family and I'm avoiding what's mine to face with either activity or apathy, the goal becomes I gotta get back in the river. How do I do that? The entry point is through the heart, that heart part of us. Heart, soul, mind and strength.

    Speaker 2 (11:53.196)

    I've got to begin to care and give curiosity to what's it like to be me? Like what feelings are true in there? Whenever, by the way, we, this is a real thing. This is like, no one's making this up. You know, this isn't fairy tale land. Like this is a science called affect labeling, A-F-F-E-C-T labeling, affect labeling. Tons of research on affect labeling.

    And affect labeling is the science of just working to put words to the feelings that are happening in my body. And if I can work, like you have a wheel, like if you can work to go, all right, which one of these most accurately describes what's true inside of me right now, I think it's, and it's a clumsy process, right? Like maybe this one, but the fact that I'm doing that work and then I start to explore, well, what's that feeling about for me? Like maybe let's say it's fear. Well, what's my fear about?

    Like, feel is the sense, is the feeling that rises when I sense I or someone I love is at risk of being harmed in one of four ways, emotionally, mentally, physically, or spiritually. How do I sense that I or someone I love is at risk? this way, that way. This is what this is about, okay? What do I need? Well, the need of my fear that my heart has is for protection, for help, or for refuge. And it's like, sometimes I can get that need met on my own. It's like, okay, I know how to get the protection I need, you know, or I know how to.

    I know the person I need to go ask for help with this or whatever it is. Sometimes I need someone else to get my needs met in a healthy way. And I have to ask them, would you be willing to provide this or help with this or do this for me? But it's the pathway back into the river of life is through the heart.

    Yes, Jake, there's so many like side parts to this conversation. have to pull us towards the attunement triangle.

    Speaker 1 (13:41.582)

    I mean, I was thinking about the word attunement and the tuning. We're a guitar family. We've got a lot of guitars in the family. And it doesn't sound good when we're playing multiple guitars or my daughter's got her violin now and they're not in tune. So first, could you kind of define the word attunement and then take us into how these three core pieces play together?

    know you've had him on, Dan Allender, know, the Christian psychologist who's out in Seattle. And I actually got that word attunement from him originally. But according to Allender, attunement is this. First of all, attunement is the key to all healthy, deeply connected, lasting relationships. If there is one thing that's going to ensure that the relationship, whether it's with my wife, whether it's with one of my kids, it's going to friendships, neighbors.

    It's gonna ensure that we remain healthy and deeply connected and the relationship, you know, perseveres and lasts. Attunement is the thing, the one thing that's gonna do that. He says, here's what attunement is. I see you, I'm willing to feel with you, I'm willing to suffer alongside of you, and I delight in you. That is attunement. I see you, I feel with you, I suffer alongside you, and I delight in you. Any relationship, well, mature relationship where two people are working to do that.

    Right, I'm just working underneath the off-putting behavior. Okay, underneath that facial expression that pressed on my trigger, you know, I told myself a story about, you if I could learn to see underneath all of that, the tone of voice, you know, the stink eye, whatever, and I can work to see them, like I'm working to see you, what's underneath that? What's it like to be you in this moment? A little objective affect labeling.

    and I'm working to see them and feel what I feel with them and suffer the moment alongside them and look for delight in them. Any relationship that consists of two people doing that, that's a relationship that's gonna last. Often though in a parenting child relationship, especially when they get a little older, start hitting those tween years, it's one-sided. They ain't gonna tune with you. You gotta be working to attune with them.

    Speaker 1 (15:52.876)

    Yeah. And just to clarify what it's not. So and you sent me these ahead of time. So it's not attunement is those four things you just mentioned. It's not behavior modification. It's not toughening up kids to survive in the world. Would you just expound on those two things that it's not real quick before we do the triangle.

    Yeah, so behavior modification tends to be a very popular approach to parenting. It's like, we gotta get them behaving a certain way, getting certain grades, engaging with adults in a certain way. And obviously it's very important and significant to bring guidance to our kids to show them how to relate in the world and how to be in the world and all that kind of stuff. But when the focus is all about, you know, kind of like this behavior modification and you behaving and acting in our home and outside of our home, the way that I expect.

    Often that's really not about teaching the kid to thrive in the world. That's about PR. That's about like, do you know what great parents have? My other mentor, Jeff Schulte, who's here in town, taught me this. Great parents have great kids. And you go out there and you be that great kid. And as you do, everyone's going to know what a great parent I am. And that tension between great parents and great kids is something called

    How am I seen?

    Speaker 2 (17:08.526)

    And when you don't meet those expectations, the pressure comes from there's going to be a punitive response. You're grounded, take your phone away, God forbid, spanking, those types of things. And as a result, I'm not actually teaching my kid to survive in the world. I'm just teaching them to survive me. And is it any wonder that so many studies show that these kids that are 4.0 students and yes ma'am, yes sir, and all this, go off to college and they go off the deep end?

    It is.

    Speaker 2 (17:37.262)

    deep plunges into pornography or partying or sexual exploits or whatever it is, drinking and drugs. Like, what's going on there? It's like, well, you didn't actually give me the infrastructure I needed to go out and face the difficulty of life. You just taught me what I needed to do to not kind of get punished by you or cut off by you. And so it can be very, very harmful when we focus on behavior modification instead of this thing called attunement, which is, you know, I...

    I'm trying to decide if I, I'm trying not to share too many personal stories, because they're not all my stories to tell. But I'll tell you one generically is I had one of my sons came home a little after curfew and I had a bunch of fear going on inside of me that I was not connected to, right? As result, was dismissing it, ignoring it. It was just all about, we made this agreement. He had this time, he was supposed to be home.

    And rather than being connected to how scary it was for me that he's 15 minutes late for his curfew and I'm starting to go to anxiety, the impairment of fear anxiety, I'm picturing him dead on the side of the road or, you know, doing something he shouldn't be doing with friends or whatever it is. Just this anxiety is swirling in me and it's ramping up my compulsion to want to control him. I will make sure that, you know, you behave X, Y, Z. So he comes in and I just lay into him, lay into him.

    Right, and I'm lecturing him and it's probably getting louder as I go and all this kind of stuff. In the middle of it, he does what a teenager does. He goes, God, dad, you can make a big deal out of anything. Which is true. So what I did in that moment, Jeff, is I was able, even in that moment in my heightened state, to attune and just see that this was not effective. Like me lecturing him, like, you know.

    I was exasperating him. was actually creating a distance between us that this was not a teaching moment, not an effective one anyway. And so what I actually responded with when he said that, God, dad, you can make a big deal out of anything. I said, yep, you're right. I can do that. I know I can do that. I'll tell you, why don't we push the pause on this? Glad you're home safe. Why don't you get a good night's sleep? I'll get a good night's sleep. Glad you're here. We can circle back to this conversation tomorrow.

    Speaker 1 (19:36.654)

    You

    Speaker 2 (19:48.428)

    And that's what we did. And then we had this really great conversation the next day where I was more connected to how scary that was for me. I was able to express that to him. So scary for me. I just care about you so much. Want to know that you're safe. Also, a big part of life is when we make agreements, we honor them. And we had this agreement. We were able to have even a conversation about, this still the right time for you? We made this curfew a year ago. Is this still the right time? Would you like it to move a little bit? How can we work together as you're getting older to give you more responsibility and those types of things?

    Can you be sure that you're honoring your side of the commitment, even if it's inconvenient or something? And if you're gonna be late, you need to call. And we just had this great conversation that was truly about teaching them how to thrive in the world, not just about you're gonna behave, how I want you to behave, and if you don't, you're gonna hear from me. That's very different.

    In my phase, there's the classic, like use my voice, my height, my, you know, my age, like basically I, to get low, to get slow, to get quiet. And so again, these four with attunement, I see you, I feel with you, I suffer alongside you, and I delight in you. And that is, you described that as the peak of the, if there's, and then there's two more pieces to this attunement triangle. Could you explain kind of the base two pieces?

    Yeah, that attunement triangle is like the structure of all healthy lasting relationships. So the pinnacle, what we're all shooting for is that idea of attunement. And then the two bottom points that are kind of the support aspects of this structure, again, this is all Allender. On one side, you've got something called containment, and then on the other point, something called repair. Containment is the playing field of relationship. And what containment means, this playing field that we establish together of relationship is,

    you don't have to get it perfect with me. Like you are invited to try and to practice relationship, which means sometimes I acknowledge you're gonna step out of bounds. I'm gonna step out of bounds. You're gonna bump into me hard. I'm gonna bump into you hard. You're gonna foul me. I'm gonna foul you. You're gonna knock me over at times. I'm gonna knock you over. But while we're gonna try not to do that, we're gonna try to have good form relationally. We're gonna try to run our route right. We're gonna try to not overly use aggression. Like we're gonna try, but.

    Speaker 2 (22:05.494)

    We're humans with our own stuff and we are going to step on each other's toes at times. Containment is the grace of the playing field that allows me to practice and not always get it right, allows you to practice, not always get it right. We're both committed to here's the playing field and we can, I'm not walking off the field. We can both be on the field and accommodate one another when we don't do it perfectly. I didn't say it right. Tone of voice, wrong word selection, reacted wrong, whatever. The other side, repair, then serves that.

    because it's not if, but when I blow it with you. We're both committed to circle back and do the repair work. And repair has to be particular. It can't just be, so you're sorry, so apologize to your sister, you know, for hitting her or whatever. It's gotta be, I know when I said this, I did damage to you and I did damage to us and I am sorry, will you forgive me? That's repair. Relationship, again, with parenting it's more one-sided.

    They don't have frontal lobes yet. It's gotta be, they need yours. But in adult, mature relationships, it's gotta be two-sided. It's gotta be two people showing up 100 % with this. Parenting, more one-sided. But in a relationship where there is attunement, containment, and repair, that is a relationship that's not only gonna last, it's gonna flourish.

    Jake, this has been so helpful and I'm so grateful for the way you've just kind of brought all of this research, your lived experience and into helping all of us dads. And I'm looking forward to already the next conversation when you have the book and the assessment out. I want to invite you any, any just last like, I didn't say this yet. I want to make sure the dads hear this. Any last words?

    man, I think I've probably snowed them over enough. Just that be gracious with yourself. Like I meet with so many dads who are constantly beating the crap out of themselves. Even in churches, it feels like Mother's Day rolls around and the messaging is like, you're doing a great job moms, like keep up the good work, you're changing the lives of these kids. And then Father's Day rolls around and it seems like the messaging is just, come on, dads.

    Speaker 2 (24:10.594)

    would you step it up? Would you get in the game? Just like there's this natural kind of bent towards fathers. And I just want you to know, if you're listening to this podcast, you're probably doing great, because you care. so much stuff on your website, Jeff, I love the resources you're providing, that you're talking about being intentional as a father and writing this generational story and all these kinds of things.

    And if you're listening to this podcast, it tells me you're probably the kind of dad who cares. You are being intentional. I love your language on there, Jeff, that you don't have to be a perfect dad. You just have to be in process, like progress, process. That's what matters. Stay in it. Me and Jeff are both for you and we're with you and love you.

    So good, so good. Could you pray a short prayer over all of us dads as we close? Yeah, I think it would.

    would be appropriate to just kind of recite the Lord's Prayer over us. That'd be great. Our Father who is in the heavens, holy is Your name. Your kingdom come, Your will be done, on earth as it is in heaven. Give us this day our daily bread. Forgive us our sins as we forgive those who sin against us. Lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory, forever and ever. Amen.

    Speaker 1 (25:33.134)

    Thank you so much for joining us for episode 399 with Dr. Jake Smith. All the conversation links, the links to Plumline, his amazing ministry, and some of the assessments, some of the specific pages around heart and soul, it's all gonna be linked in the show notes at dadawesome.org slash podcast. One more reminder, an invitation to prayerfully apply to be a part of one of the upcoming Dad Awesome Accelerator cohorts. We've got a few spots left and we'd love

    to welcome a few of you guys to step in with your whole hearts to a six week sprint, bringing you everything we've learned in these 400 podcast conversations. Guys, I'm praying for you this week. Don't miss next week, episode 400. Don't miss it. Excited to bring you some looking back, looking forward to really special episodes. So praying for you guys. Have a great week.

    • "I see you, I feel with you, I suffer alongside you, and I delight in you."

    • "70% of Christian leaders don't finish well—don't be part of that statistic."

    • "Stop teaching your kids to survive you and start teaching them to thrive in life."

    • "Are you crushing life or is life crushing you?"

    • "The goal isn't perfect parenting—it's staying in process."

    • "Attunement is the one thing that ensures relationships last."

    • "Your kids don't need behavior modification—they need you to see them."

    • "Escape the grind before it leads to burnout, flame out, or tap out."

    • "Great parents don't always have great kids—but connected parents do."

    • "You don't have to be a perfect dad—you just have to be present."

 

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