407 | Creating Spiritual Curiosity, Jesus' Lion and Lamb Moments, and Building Faith Through Questions (David Murrow)
Episode Description
Raising your kids on lectures and long prayers isn't working—Jesus knew that 2,000 years ago. In this episode, David Murrow shares how to create spiritual curiosity in your home using questions instead of answers, 15-second prayers instead of lengthy devotionals, and parables that stick. You'll also hear his groundbreaking research on why men are finally coming back to church, and how every dad moves through three essential journeys: submission, strength, and sacrifice.
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David Murrow is the author of Why Men Hate Going to Church and The Map: The Way of All Great Men. For over 25 years, he's been helping churches engage men through groundbreaking research and practical resources. He's currently developing Man Time, a parable-based video series that creates powerful spiritual conversations. David is passionate about helping dads disciple their kids through questions, stories, and hands-on experiences rather than lectures.
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Discovered truth always beats delivered truth—guys need space to talk and share their experiences, not just receive lectures.
Jesus asked hundreds of questions but only gave eight direct answers in all of Scripture—create curiosity through great questions instead of telling your kids what to think.
The foundation of your faith must be built on being like a lamb (gentleness, sensitivity, mercy) before you can exercise lion-like strength in love.
Try 15-second prayers with your kids throughout the day—integrate faith as something you do all the time, not just on Sundays.
Touchstones are physical objects that help spiritual truths stick—give your kids something tangible to carry that reminds them of what they're learning.
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Learn about the next DadAwesome Accelerator Cohort
Subscribe to DadAwesome Messages: Text the word "Dad" to (651) 370-8618
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DAVID MURROW: Jesus was great at creating curiosity. He asked hundreds of questions. He asked hundreds of questions, but he only gave eight direct answers in all of scripture. I think we've got to go back to Jesus' method is start creating great questions, start creating life-changing discussions instead of just lecturing people and telling them this is what you need to do.
JEFF ZAUGG: Hey guys, welcome back to Dad Awesome. My name is Jeff Zaugg and today, episode 407, I have David Murrow joining me. Before I introduce him, I want to quick invite you guys one more time to leave a voice message for Dad Awesome. We're gathering questions, topics, themes, specific questions, or general encouragement of, hey, this was helpful. I want to invite you guys to hop into the show notes today or into whatever app you're listening to this podcast on and you can leave a 90 second voice message starting with your name and where you're from.
And then go ahead and leave your voice message. And we're gathering these for a future episode. I'm just excited to dive in and discuss some of the top questions that are surfacing. We've gathered some, but we're looking to gather a few more questions before we release this episode. So I want to invite you to do that. David Murrow is our guest today. He has been for 25 plus years helping the church engage men. So he wrote a book over 20 years ago called Why Men Hate Going to Church. And he's done a ton of research, deeper dive research on how to help churches engage men versus just, you know, primarily create weekend experiences that engage women. And he's got lots of specifics that are shared today. He also has another book that I'm just really excited to dive into that talks about these different journeys that a man goes on. It's called The Map, and we're going to talk about it. There's a visual actually in the show notes. It's a link to the visual that explains these three primary journeys of a man. So, excited for today's conversation. This is episode 407 with David Murrow.
We just had a campfire a few days ago in Nashville, Tennessee, encouraging dads. And I think I surprised them because over half our conversation was mining out discoveries. I call them dad discoveries and just asking, what are you learning? What are you learning? And it was wild, the look in their eyes that just sharing, this is from my perspective, something I'm learning. It was encouraging all the dads. And I know this is a passion of yours that discovered truth always beats delivered truth. Did I get that phrase right?
DAVID MURROW: No, you nailed it. And yeah, I think one of the things I've learned about men is we're often talked to, but we don't have the opportunity to talk, to tell our stories, to share our experiences. We get a lot of lecture, even in church. You know, we sit down for a 40 minute lecture on Sunday and it's a great lecture. It's full of God's truth. But guys really do need an opportunity just to talk and to share what they're experiencing and what they've learned. And not to get shot down, because you know guys say crazy things from time to time. We've got to have that freedom of interaction and I think what you're doing with the guys is right on, what did you call it?
JEFF ZAUGG: I call it dad discoveries where you're like listening, what are you discovering? And it just, it takes all the barriers down, like you said.
DAVID MURROW: Yeah, it's not real clinical. It's not even necessarily scriptural. Just let guys talk and then bring the Bible in on the back end to surprise them.
JEFF ZAUGG: Exactly, and I think the process of being a pioneer versus being someone who settles, this is what I've gathered from years of reading and just observing some of your leadership is you're just forging into new areas. Hey, can I help here? Can I help here? Maybe I can help here. And many dads I think feel like, someone else needs to be the creator. I'll just receive and implement plays, other people. I wanted you to encourage, how do you see like being a pioneer as a dad and trying things? How would you encourage us in that sphere?
DAVID MURROW: Well, actually, let me put this back on the church. I think we've done a pretty poor job equipping dads to disciple their own kids, for example. I didn't feel like I had the tools I needed to inculcate the faith. And it's gotten even worse with children's church, because the adults learn one thing, the kids learn something else, and we don't have anything to talk about after church. We need to do a better job resourcing parents to reach their own kids. I'm working on these parables, for example.
One-minute videos that you can share online, that you can share with other men, that you can share with your kids to start spiritual conversations. And these resources are out there, dads. So, you know, be looking for these minutes, these short things you can share with your kids to open the door to conversations. Learn to ask great questions. Instead of just, how was school today? Learn to phrase it in terms of what's the best thing that happened to you today? What's some of the challenges you faced today? Really get your kids to open up. And then again, bring the Bible in to surprise them.
JEFF ZAUGG: You could jump back into the younger dad years. I know you're in the grandpa phase right now, which is so incredible. What are a few of the just top of mind encouragements like, like take more ownership like you just brought up a second ago for discipling, but what are some of the things you would want to tell yourself as a young dad to prioritize?
DAVID MURROW: I think keep it short. I mean, short prayers with your kids. You know, I've learned even with my adult children, I've started doing what I call 15-second prayers. And I just say, hey, let's do a 15-second prayer. And you just drop prayer into your conversation right in the middle of it. I think you could do that with your kids and just teach them to go to the Lord quickly. You know, Paul says pray without ceasing. He's not talking about going around with your eyes closed and your hands folded all day. He's talking about dropping prayer into your life all the time.
So I think I could have done a better job doing that when my kids were little, more integrating the faith as sort of a thing that you just do all the time instead of just something you do on Sunday or you do when you're serving or whatever. Yeah, try 15 second prayers with your kids when they say, hey, I'm being bullied at school. Then you'll turn to your kid and you say, all right, we're going to do a 15 second prayer. Lord, we pray for that bully, for the heartache he's causing, and I pray that it would stop. And whatever's bothering him, I pray that you would love him out of that anger. Amen. It's just as simple as that. And then, all right, kid, do you want to do a 15 second prayer? Come on. You get them to open their mouths and pray too. And I think integrating prayer as a normal thing that you do with your kids is probably one of the most powerful witnesses you can have with them.
JEFF ZAUGG: I read some of your research around the parables in the Bible are like 20 seconds and the max one is like two minutes and 20 seconds. It's like super short. So as dads, it almost takes the pressure down. We can create little bite size story application or prayer bite size. Another just small takeaway I read in using yours is a PDF to help the church engage men. And one of them was this concept of touchstones, touchstones being a small something that could go in your pocket, something like a coin, or I have my pocket knife, it means a very specific thing, it reminds me of something. How would the touchstone principle work for a dad trying to bring some deeper truth to a child?
DAVID MURROW: This would require a lot of thought and creativity, but an ideal touchstone speaks to a spiritual principle. Like one time I was speaking to a group of men and I was enclosed head to toe in a box. And I was talking about all the boxes we men get ourselves into, anger and debt and lust and all these boxes we find ourselves in. And then I tried to fight myself out of the box. And then I tried to pray my way out of the box. And nothing happened. Well, then I called four men up who had box cutter knives in their hands and they sliced me out of the box. Right? And then I stepped out and I said, look how I got out. I didn't pray my way out. I didn't faith my way out. I turned to my brothers who cut me out. And you know, that was a very powerful illustration for those men. And then every man goes home with a knife.
We gave him a box cutter knife and we said, take this, carry it around with you everywhere you go this week, except on an airplane. And when you feel that temptation, tap the knife and call a brother. And so if you can get guys to carry touchstones around for a while, it'll cause them to remember the lesson and apply it. Too much of God's word just gets snatched away by the birds of the air. We get busy, the cares of this life. But if you give them a touchstone, it helps them remember and the seed stays planted.
JEFF ZAUGG: And if you could mix, I mean, just for dads, we could borrow that example of, we could teach our kids something inside of a cardboard box sometime. I mean, like that's so memorable. And then if you could add, hey, this is a moment that I want. So for my oldest daughter, she does have a pocket knife and I've taught her how to use that pocket knife. So yeah, to take again, the principle with a, this is yours now, it's a gift for you. But then unpacking, speaking from inside of a box is a phenomenal example. Can you give any other one come top of mind as far as a unique way to communicate a deeper truth that maybe a dad could borrow?
DAVID MURROW: Well, there's always the ones that are in the scripture. We have over 40 parables of Jesus. And the reason we still have those is just because people shared them, remembered them, and shared them with others. So they're very sticky. I really can't think of one top of mind right now. I am working, we're about to release a new video series for men called Man Time, which has over 60 parables. I don't know if you've ever been to a men's Bible study, but you open your Bible, you read, you talk, all that stuff. We're taking Jesus' approach.
Instead of a Bible study, what we do is we show you a parable and then you have about 10 minutes to sit around a table and try to figure out what it means, which is exactly what Jesus did with the disciples. Even the disciples didn't know what his parables meant. And so he led them through this process. He taught, they discussed, they argued, no, it means this. No, I think it means this. No, it couldn't mean that. It must mean this. Guys are great at arguing, right?
And then after they've had their 10 minutes or so, every table comes up with their consensus of what the parable means. And because guys are competitive, they want to get it right. And then we show them an interpretation video, which is also only a minute long. And then that sets up the discussion. So I mean, I wish I had an example I could share with you right now, but they're still in final edit.
But if you go to mantime.men, you can sign up for the release and then you can use these in your men's group. And I think a lot of dads would probably want to use them with their kids because they're great discussion starters. Jesus was great at creating curiosity. He asked hundreds of questions. But I was just reading, he asked hundreds of questions, but he only gave eight direct answers in all of scripture. So I think we've got to go back to Jesus' method is start creating great questions. Start creating life-changing discussions instead of just lecturing people and telling them this is what you need to do.
JEFF ZAUGG: Wow, and recently I just learned that asking great questions instead of saying why or when or where, like saying what at the front end of our questions just opens a little more the deeper dialogue. So yes, great questions, less telling answers. This is super helpful. I know those parables, if you leave it to open interpretation with a group of dads, we're going to send in our show notes, everyone to mantime.men. Did I get that right?
DAVID MURROW: Yes, you're correct.
JEFF ZAUGG: The parables though, it's like, what's the principle from a parable that affects, that I can take as a father into my fatherhood. Then it's like, what's the principle as a, you know, as a man, a son, like there's so many like ways to, yeah, Jesus' parables just are, yep, so richly complex and we can take into different areas. So I wanted to ask one teaching that for, I think over 20 years, you have continued to encourage men with is this contrast between Jesus being the lion and Jesus being the lamb and this three journeys. I'll have for the video version, the graphic up right now so you can kind of walk it through and know that they're watching. And then I'll also include a link to the graphic for the guys that are just listening. But could you walk us through the book of Matthew and how it affects us as dads, as men?
DAVID MURROW: Okay, so we're always encouraged in church to be like Jesus, but at certain times Jesus was like a lion, and other times he was like a lamb. So which Jesus are we supposed to be like in any given situation? When your teenage daughter is freaking out, are you lion or lamb? When your son sets fire to the couch, is it lion or lamb? What is your response? So there's a template in the Gospel of Matthew. The first seven chapters of Matthew, Jesus is almost completely lamb. And so what's Matthew trying to tell us? The foundation of our faith, we have to build our faith on being like a lamb. The first lessons of the faith, gentleness, meekness, sensitivity, all the things the guys hate doing, that's the foundation of your faith. And if you lack love, if you're not built on a foundation of love and mercy and care, you will become an angry legalist, just like the Pharisees were.
But then once you've established this foundation, which I call the journey of submission, there's a second journey. Matthew 8 through 25, Jesus goes completely lion. And so what Matthew is trying to show us is once we have this foundation of kindness, gentleness, and sensitivity, then we've got to go lion. We've got to go into action. But we do it out of a foundation of love. And so I see this lacking in a lot of Christian men. We all want to stand up for the truth, and we all want to blast the other team and the secularists who are harming and blah, blah, blah. And yes, we should be angry, but we've got to do it out of a foundation of love or we're just going to drive them further into their sin. So the first journey is called the journey of submission. The second is the journey of strength, strength exercised in love. But then there's a third journey from Matthew 26 to 28, which I call the journey of sacrifice. And this is the journey I'm moving into now as I'm approaching retirement and stuff.
Pour my life into other men, how do I invest in the next generation? Now as dads, all of you are doing this. You're already, you may be in your journey of submission or strength, but you're already investing in the next generation through your children, through the teams you coach, through the troops, the scout troops or the, you know, the trail life troops or whoever you're leading. You're already doing this. So it's a little tricky for dads because you're actually on all three paths at the same time.
The most important thing is not to say, where am I on the map? You'll see the map on the screen. The real question is, am I progressing up the mountain? Have I kept my foundation one of love? Am I exercising that strength in love? And am I sacrificing for the next generation?
JEFF ZAUGG: And you wrote an entire book about this that I know brings deep story engagement written for the heart of a man and then takes into these principles. Tell us the name of the book one more time.
DAVID MURROW: Well, I got a copy right here. I'll put it on the screen. You ready? Yeah. It's called The Map, The Way of All Great Men. And I realized that this is a real different kind of book. I wrote the first 10 chapters like a Jason Bourne thriller. So it draws you into the story. It's actually a giant parable. Yes. I love parables. And then in the last 10 chapters, I unpacked the theology. Again, like I say, I bring the Bible in on the back end.
The story is upfront, but I think you're really in... Guys read this and they go, I love the story. I wish it kept going on. Because I like writing fiction and I like reading adventure stories. I'll write an adventure story that unlocks a deeper spiritual truth. So yeah, if you want to pick up a copy of this, you can go to davidmurrow.com. I've got a link to it and you can pick up a copy.
JEFF ZAUGG: Amazing. My four daughters, I want to raise them with this heart of, and their submission, then their strength, and then laced into this is sacrifice and living for others. So that framework, I mean, just even doing a study with my girls into, it applies to me, it applies as a tool that I can bring to my girls. And when they see that dad, like often I'll be praying, God, I want to, I'm a pretty tall guy and I'll pray this like, and they know I want to be a gentle giant, but I also want to model for them, I want to model for them strength, conviction, boldness. And so yeah, I'm thrilled to introduce or to introduce or reintroduce to our listeners your book and send them that way. I know another project that you've been helping local churches around the world with for, again, this is now stood the test of time, like 21, 22 years.
And it has a strong name. I tell my girls, I'm like, we don't say the word hate, except for there are some things that Jesus does hate. And so why men hate going to church? Why did you write it back in 03, 04, whatever that was? And then how have you seen, have you seen any of the response of a church turning or is it still just as needed today?
DAVID MURROW: It's happening. I mean, I don't want to take credit for it, but we're definitely seeing a vibe shift where men are coming back to church. And the churches they're coming to are those that have swept away a lot of the feminine markers of Christian behavior. And I'm actually working on a sequel. I can't quite release what it is, but my main theory is the reason men are coming back to church is because 20 years ago when I wrote Why Men Hate Going to Church, society was more masculine than church. You think about what was expected of a man. He could fight, he could swear, he could be promiscuous. This is what guys were, you know, we're tough guys, right? Well, then in the 2010s, society kind of lurched toward the feminine. We got what was called woke.
And it was all about sensitivity and nurturing and caring. And a lot of guys were just, masculinity became toxic. I mean, even asking a girl on a date, you were considered a wolf. And a lot of guys just really, they weren't going to tolerate that. Well, you know what? The church didn't move. The church remained anchored in ancient truth. And so we didn't get whipsawed over to wokeness. We stayed in our, you know, hey, love your neighbor, but don't wheel your neighbor's children into an operating room to be amputees. We didn't go for the full crazy wokeness. Love your neighbor, but don't defund the police. We didn't go completely that way, that feminized path. And so I think we've won the respect of a lot of men. And we've been recognized as really the only institution that didn't go full blown woke and didn't go full blown men, you're the problem.
And so we're actually now more masculine than the culture. And I think a lot of guys are saying, you know, that's a place where guys go. That's a place where men go. And a lot of high profile athletes, I mean, even guys like Joe Rogan are coming out and saying, I like going to church. It's becoming masculine coded. For hundreds of years, it was feminine coded, but church is now masculine coded. It's recognized as a safe place for guys to go to get into healthy friendships, to avoid the excesses of both wokeness and the manosphere, which is toxic, it truly is toxic masculinity. I think it's seen as a balanced place where guys can go and get ancient, time-tested advice on how to live their lives that are not overly feminized or overly masculinized. Does that make sense?
JEFF ZAUGG: I was hoping for maybe just a few. I know there's even the assessment you've created for churches to know how welcoming are you, how there's so many complexities, but could you give just a few examples from, it could be from the type and length of music to who's on stage to length of sermon. Yeah, I'd love to hear a few examples.
DAVID MURROW: Well, all things being equal, guys prefer sermons that are shorter than longer. Hit your time marks. If you normally preach 30 minutes and you need to go longer, don't. Drop a point. Just get the guys done on time. They will respect you if you respect their time. Then the music, when I wrote Why Men Hate Going to Church in 2005, there definitely was a lot of Jesus is My Boyfriend songs. They had a lot of, you're asking a guy to sing a love song to another man, that's a tough, that's a heavy lift. Because a lot of guys don't see Christ as their lover, they see Him as their leader. The tide has really turned on this one. And I think my book had something to do with that. I've heard from a lot of worship leaders who've said they're really kind of not making their sets more macho.
But what they're doing is they're just taking out these overly feminized allusions, these ideas that Jesus is our lover, we want to kiss him and all that stuff. That's going away, because those things are not only unbiblical, they're also unhelpful. A lot of contemporary churches have dispensed with the quilts, the banners, the flowers, the ribbons, the lace, sort of the Victorian era type decor that was so common in the church in the 20th century.
And so guys are very visual. We walk in and we say, all right, am I in Home Depot or am I in a fabric store? And if the church is decorated like grandma's parlor, like a fabric store, they're going to know that this ain't for me. But if the church looks like a hunting lodge, if there's stone, if it looks like a retreat center or something, if the outdoors come in, then I think that's a positive for guys. A lot of churches kind of went big, dark windowless box. They're starting to open the windows again because guys feel more secure when the outdoors comes in. They're letting natural light into their worship spaces again. So, I mean, yeah, there's just dozens of things in that book. And I think a lot of churches have kind of taken that to heart. A lot of seminaries have used my book to train their pastors that, you know, the little things do matter. It's not just what you preach, but how long you preach, what you emphasize, and even how your sanctuary looks that are going to tell men this is a thing for you.
JEFF ZAUGG: Super helpful. And this is, I mean, from the genesis of this ministry, Dad Awesome, we released a podcast and then shortly after released these challenge events. It was an initiative, spanned six years, 30 events around the country called Fathers for the Fatherless. And it was hundred mile bike rides, Spartan races, let's do long runs. And not to say it's all about strength and muscle, but by doing challenges, we found men engaging that were not even... They're the neighbor who's never given church a shot, said, I can do that because I agree with the mission and I want to do something shoulder by shoulder. So that's relaunching for our ministry in 2026, our activation events to get men moving. What else have you seen for bright spots of like, you mentioned somehow churches, even architecture to format flow. Any other just like bright spots or like this is helping, it's showing that there's a turn of men to faith, but also connection with the local church.
DAVID MURROW: Well, yeah, and even beyond the local church, there's a lot of parachurch organizations that are sort of vacuuming up these guys who are open to faith but don't necessarily want to sing and hear a sermon. So they go to CrossFit. They go to, they do these 6 a.m. workouts and stuff. And you talk to these guys and almost to a man, they say, this is my church. This is where I connect with God.
The sort of the sitting and being an audience just doesn't connect with them. Their bodies have to move. And so my question is, can a workout be worship? Are we fulfilling, I'm grappling with this right now. Do you have to go to church if you go to CrossFit and you pray with the guys and you're serving through that or whatever?
It is yet to be seen where this direction is going to take us, but I can see the change in these men through these parachurch organizations. And they're changed in a way that church never did. So I'm wondering if God is raising up something new and if it fulfills the scriptural definition of what a church is.
JEFF ZAUGG: That's fascinating because, what Jesus modeled of come follow me was not comfortable, it was not safe, it was not within walls, it was not great coffee on the way in the building, right? It was sacrifice and journey and adventure and pioneering. And yeah, so if there are different models, I know some home churches have, hey, like we meet in homes and then we go serve. It's going to look a little more like movement and community and in the round versus rows of chairs at a stage and I wrestle as well. But I think the wrestling is good. To go back to discoveries, like what discoveries are we making?
DAVID MURROW: And I would never disparage the model of church we've had ever since Martin Luther 500 years ago. I mean, there is great value to hearing preaching. There's great value to being together, singing together. I would not say that that should be diminished at all. But I'm merely bringing up the question is, is that model creating disciples fast enough to replace those who are leaving? And is it energizing men? And so I think wise churches would be wise to look at things like CrossFit and these parachurch mission trips and different things that men are doing to build their faith outside the walls of the church and say, how do we help that? How do we support that? And it can't just all be Bible studies over and over again. Men got to do something.
JEFF ZAUGG: Yeah, parables. I really, what you're creating for men around, man, it's short, but you digest, you wrestle out, argue out, figure out. I wanted to invite you, David, to just challenge us to not just take a blueprint or an Ikea directions to fatherhood or to the Bible, but to actually wrestle. What would you want to share to just challenge dads to wrestle and to wrestle and show their kids when it comes to when it comes to growth and like, man, what does God want to teach us here? How would you encourage us in that area?
DAVID MURROW: Yeah, seek out resources that create great spiritual conversations between you and your children. And again, this is an area where I was negligent as a dad. And then I think the other thing would be, well, Christian dads, surround yourself with other Christian dads so that you can encourage one another. I mean, a lot of us have tried the traditional things. We've tried having Bible studies with our kids. The kids hated it.
If it doesn't work, try something else. Try doing object lessons with your kids. Try doing... There are a lot of ideas out there online that there weren't when I was a dad in the 90s. So look for those resources and then do things with your dad awesome partners. Just hang out with men. Just being with men, iron sharpens iron. And share what you're doing with your kids, what works, what doesn't. Get all the kids together and do something fun with them. And I think you'll rack up some victories and really safeguard their faith as they get into their teen years and beyond.
JEFF ZAUGG: David, thank you for this conversation. We'll make sure to link out your two books and this new project, mantime.men. So we'll link that out and can't wait for that to be released, those parables. Would you say just a short prayer over all of us dads?
DAVID MURROW: Lord, we're doing something that raising kids, nobody taught us really how to do it. A lot of us don't have a good blueprint. There's financial pressures, there's marriage pressures, there's pressures at work. And we're going to set those all down in front of you, Lord. And we're going to ask you to take them and make us the very best dads we can be. And our children are our legacy, and we don't want to mess them up. Instead, we want to help them, give them a leg up. So Father, I know I've gone beyond my 15 seconds, but we love you and I thank you for every man who's hearing this podcast and make them a champion for you. Amen.
JEFF ZAUGG: Thank you so much for joining us for episode 407 with David Murrow. The show notes, the conversation links, transcripts, key quotes, links to his books and the resources for the local church to engage men are all going to be at dadawesome.org slash podcast. Guys, thanks for leaning in. Thanks for listening. Thanks for prayerfully pursuing the hearts of your kids. I just was with a group of guys this morning and we're all encouraging each other, man, let's just reach out to one other dad.
Let's reach out and pull them in to the Dad Awesome community. So I would encourage you guys, whether it's today's episode or we have a start here button on our website that has kind of three or four top podcasts that have been most impactful along with kind of start here around coaching, start here around upcoming activation events. It's just kind of one stop on our website that has what are we all about? What's our mission and how are we resourcing dads? So you can simply text that along dadawesome.org slash start here and that will help guys get started in the journey. So praying for you guys. Thanks for leaning in. Have a great week.
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Discovered truth always beats delivered truth. Guys need space to talk and share experiences, not just receive lectures.
Jesus asked hundreds of questions but only gave eight direct answers in Scripture. Create curiosity, not lectures.
Try 15-second prayers with your kids. Integrate faith as something you do all the time, not just Sundays.
The foundation of your faith must be built on being like a lamb before you exercise lion-like strength.
Church is now more masculine than culture. It's recognized as a safe place where guys can go.
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