388 | Self-Aware, Other-Aware, God-Aware: Relational Wisdom That Changes Everything (Ken Sande PART 2)

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Episode Description

Every dad faces conflict at home, but most of us handle it all wrong. In this episode, Ken Sande shares powerful tools that will transform how you navigate family tension. You'll discover the SOG plan for conflict resolution, learn the SERVE acrostic for loving your wife well, and hear an incredible story about how bringing the gospel to his 12-year-old daughter melted her rebellious heart in seconds. These aren't just concepts—they're practical tools you can use tonight.

  • Ken Sande is the founder of Peacemaker Ministries and Relational Wisdom 360. As a lawyer turned peacemaker, he has helped resolve over 600 family conflicts, including 300+ marriages headed for divorce. Ken is the author of multiple books on conflict resolution and relational wisdom. He and his wife Corlette have been married for nearly 40 years and are more in love today than ever before.

    • The SOG plan (Self-aware, Other-aware, God-aware) breaks the cycle of self-justification and blame in family conflicts.

    • Asking "What would please and honor God right now?" can instantly transform heated arguments into opportunities for growth.

    • The SERVE acrostic gives dads a clear roadmap for loving their wives: Smile, Explore, Reconcile, Value, Encourage.

    • Bringing the gospel to your kids is more powerful than any lecture—it softens hearts and creates lasting change.

    • When daddy comes home, the whole household should light up because you've learned to put wind under everyone's wings.


  • The metaphor we use is like eagles. Eagles get up to 10,000, 15,000 feet because they find warm updrafts of air and that takes them up. Make it your goal to put wind under the wings of every person you meet today. It could be the barista at Starbucks. It could be the receptionist at your front desk. It should certainly be your spouse and your kids. I mean, when daddy's home, the whole household should go, "Daddy's home!" And everybody is just so happy to see you.

    Jeff Zaugg

    Welcome back to DadAwesome. Today is the second half of my conversation with Ken Sande. This is episode 388. And last week, if you missed the setup, go back and listen to 387 because that's really the first 25 minutes of the setup. But there's so many practical tools that Ken Sande shares. He basically is handing us a whole tool belt to be DadAwesome.

    Around relational tools, around peacekeeping, around—and of course, he threads his own personal story and really just a gripping, man, the interaction with his daughter that he unpacks today. I'm so grateful. So guys, buckle up, take some notes. Remember, we're looking for what's the one thing from today's conversation that we can put into action. We wanna be dads with a bias towards action versus just dads who ponder or have intent. It matters, guys, if we don't put it into practice.

    If we don't take action, we are not being DadAwesome. So you know this, let's do it. This is episode 388 with Ken Sande.

    Jeff Zaugg (02:23.438)
    Self-aware, other-aware, God-aware—that's part of self-aware is our identity from God that God has given us. But would you unpack the SOG plan?

    Ken Sande
    Yeah, we like to take the complex neurological concepts, theological concepts—we want to be rigorously biblical and understand how God made us, but then we want to reduce those things down to very simple acrostics we can easily memorize and then practice throughout the day until they become habits. And it's like riding a bike. When you first start, it seems awkward, we're uncomfortable, we have to focus. But after a while, you're not even thinking about balancing the bike. You know, I see kids going down with their hands, you know, playing on their phone as they're riding their bike. So these things can become habits.

    So we just give these four acrostics for relational wisdom, for example. I mentioned one already, the READ acrostic, to become more self-aware, self-engaging. The SOG one applies the entire relational wisdom paradigm and there's three dimensions in that paradigm: our relationship with God, how we manage ourselves—engage with ourselves—and how we engage our neighbors. So God-aware, self-aware, other-aware.

    So the SOG plan is just self-aware, other-aware, God-aware. If we think three-dimensionally, and when I get involved in a conflict that's been going on for a long time, invariably the reason that people have been locked in a conflict is they're stuck at self-justification, other-blaming. So they're just looking at self and other but in the wrong direction. I'm vindicating myself and blaming you, and that makes the other person very tempted to do the same thing back at me. So we're just back and forth. I'm right, you're wrong, you're wrong, I'm right—we go back and forth.

    It's bringing God into the equation. Where is God in this? Where is God in this? And so one of the questions when you're thinking about God, to be God-aware, I ask people all the time: what would please and honor God in this particular situation?

    And one of the best illustrations I could give—I'm a lawyer, so I'm not a fun person to have a conflict with. I love to advocate for my favorite client, which is me, and I love to prosecute anyone who's against me. But God was gracious to my wife. He gave her an equally powerful tool. She was a second grade teacher, and she has the voice, okay, so she can control 25 kids with her voice.

    So the early years of our marriage, we got into conflict. I'd whip out the adversarial skills, she'd whip out the voice, and we would have a jolly old time. So one morning, early in the morning, we got into a disagreement. I don't remember what the issue was. They were always, I'm sure, looking back, absolutely trivial. But she wasn't quite ready to fully engage, so we had an initial exchange, and then she sort of threw her arms up and said, "I can't believe you." She stepped into the bathroom, which was right next to the bedroom.

    She was in there, stoking up the voice. I was in the bedroom planning my opening argument. And the thing about marriage, why marriage conflict is so terrible, when you live with someone year after year, you find all their weak spots. You know exactly what buttons to push. You know exactly how to accuse them of hypocrisy. And that's why marital conflict can be so painful. So I'm in there ready to just win this argument, and I take one step toward the door to go and engage Corlette. And this phrase that I've asked hundreds of clients comes to mind. It's not an audible voice, but it's just this thought, and it's basically this: "Ken, what would please and honor me right now?"

    And I just—what I basically did mentally was go, "I am busy right now, go away." I mean, the last thing I was thinking about was pleasing and honoring God. I was thinking about vindicating and glorifying myself. That's my sin nature coming out. But God—it was just like the Holy Spirit was so gracious, just put that thought there a second time. "Ken, Ken, what would please and honor me right now?"

    And it just took all the wind out of my sails. I was dead in the water. And I just stopped. I said, "God, please forgive me. There's my pride, my self-righteousness, my lack of empathy. And I am not loving my wife the way Christ loves his church. Please forgive me, God." And suddenly, it just became very evident—my sin became much bigger.

    I was ready to see the log in my eye rather than the speck. So I stepped into the bathroom and I just said, "Corlette, I am so sorry, honey." And what I discovered was the Holy Spirit hadn't talked to my wife yet and she was still ready to rumble. It's almost like two linebackers ready to go—hut, hut and bam. She wasn't ready for me to come in and confess and she was just for a moment caught off balance, really. And she paused, she hesitated and then...

    Jeff Zaugg (07:08.238)
    I heard these words I hear again and again in mediations. When one person starts to get the log out of their own eye because God has come back in the equation, what often happens—and we call it the golden result—other people tend to treat us the way we treat them. So when I stopped blaming and started confessing, what I heard from my wife was, "Well no Ken, I'm sorry, it was my fault, I started this." And then I said, "No Corlette, I was the one who started it."

    "No Ken, I didn't." And suddenly we've got a whole new argument which is pleasing in the eyes of God. I became my own chief accuser. I was more focused on the log in my eye. That made it easy for my wife to do the same thing. And the whole thing was over in like 15 seconds. And so just that very simple self-aware, other-aware, God-aware. God-aware is key. What would please and honor God in this situation?

    Jeff Zaugg
    I'm thinking about blind spots and for all of those 600 cases and the 300 that got reconciled of these marriages headed towards divorce, what are a few common—for the dad, for the man—blind spots that if you shared a few examples, it might spur us on to be like, "Hey, I need to look at myself."

    Ken Sande
    Well, I mean, there's all sorts of things you can do depending on the case. The facts vary in case after case. Just praying initially, because all the willpower in the world can't help us to overcome our sinful nature. It's deep, it's ingrained, we need help. And so just humility to pray, "God help me, please God help me."

    And three qualities I would encourage men to really seek to cultivate is humility, teachability, and flexibility. I wrote a blog on that, how those three qualities—whether it's in the workplace, as a parent, as a spouse—if we can cultivate the power of the Holy Spirit. And I wish it was a one time—just flip the switch and suddenly I'm humble, flexible, and teachable, but that's not really the case. But as you pray about those things, it's like Ephesians 4. We need to put off the old self, which is corrupted by its deceitful desires, be made new in the attitude of the mind as we study God's word, sit under good teaching, read good writers, and then we put on the new self created to be like Christ in true righteousness and holiness. So there's a sanctification process going on.

    But I would specifically pray for those qualities: humility, teachability, flexibility. And I can send you the link for that blog. It's one I think if dads really cultivated it. But that would be a place to start. I would also really urge men to reflect prayerfully sometime: If I don't cultivate these character qualities, what could happen to my wife or my life?

    At the very least, my marriage will probably grow superficial and cold. It'll just become more and more empty. And even if I decide, you know, I made a vow, I'm not gonna break it, you're not gonna be getting the joy in your marriage. My wife and I are gonna celebrate our 40th anniversary this June, and we are more in love today than we were 40 years ago. So just think about the consequence, if we don't do this, of an empty, superficial marriage.

    Secondly, you'll be setting an example, a negative one for your kids, that marriages are fun for a while and then they just grow old and cold. And to see your kids struggle in their marriages, maybe go through divorce. I mean, just realize it's sort of like Deuteronomy 4. I think it is where Moses talks about two mountains. These are the blessings of righteousness and these are the punishments and the consequences of sin. Choose the mountain of blessing. Choose it consciously, deliberately.

    Walk in obedience to God. And then just realize you can profoundly affect the course of your marriage. In all the divorce cases I've worked on, Jeff, what I've noticed—women can certainly influence their husbands in many, many beneficial ways. And women should always be seeking to have that positive influence. But what really happens in most situations is that women will come up to or down to typically the level of their husband in so many ways, and particularly spirituality.

    If the husband has a shallow spiritual life, if God's word does not play much of a role, if he's not leading his family in devotions, it'll make it harder and harder for his wife to have a robust spiritual life herself. She'll become lackadaisical, she'll become superficial, and you both lose that energizing power of the Holy Spirit.

    But if the man is enthusiastic about Christ, if he is always—one of the things we teach is the idea of always looking for EGGs, evidences of God's grace. And if we are being hopeful, drawing attention just in creation, the beauty of God, looking at all the ways God is moving this world, all the blessings he's pouring into our lives, if we're talking about those things, focusing on those things, it creates an atmosphere in the home that is focused on good and positive things instead of being critical, nagging, bitter, resentful, self-pity. You just want to cultivate an attitude of encouragement in the home.

    Another thing that I think husbands can do to set a great example is one of our other resources called Seven Steps to Empathy. How do you cultivate the God-given quality of empathy so you can pick up on your wife? I mean, this is one thing I hear from husbands all the time in divorce cases, whose marriage is falling apart, and the man does love his wife. He doesn't want to lose the family, but he has never really worked at cultivating the kind of intimacy that God designed. And part of it is they never sought their father, and they haven't learned how to read their wife's body language, her moods, her just facial expressions—we're missing clues right and left that are coming at us. And so learning to practice these seven steps of empathy, picking up on, you know, even tone of voice.

    For example, you could walk into a coffee shop one day, see a guy from church and say, "Hey Steve, how you doing?" And one day he might say, "I'm okay." Another day he might go, "I'm... okay." Those are two completely different answers. That little pause—basically when someone says, "I'm... okay," he's basically saying, "I'm not okay. But I don't know if you have time or if you care enough to really engage me, so I'm just gonna give you a little hint that there's something hard in my life and I'll see what you do with it." And men do this more than women. Women are much more transparent normally about their emotions, but our wives give us little cues all the time, all the time.

    And just for example, one of the main things I see a lot in Christian women is they can be so hard on themselves, judging themselves. They have this standard of what a godly mother, godly wife is like. They always feel like they're falling short. There's a great movie we refer to in our training called Mom's Night Out, which captures a lot of that dynamic beautifully. And so for us as men to be encouraging our wife, affirming our wife—and that's our SERVE acrostic, S-E-R-V-E. If we learn how to serve our wives:

    S is smile. Our countenance sends a message, even as we approach our wife, if there's a big smile on your face as you walk up to your wife, as you walk in the door, boy, it just tells her, "He's happy to see me, he likes me, this is gonna be good, this is gonna be wonderful." But if you walk in with a frown, an exhausted look on your face, "Uh-oh, bad day at the office, look out." So that's S.

    And E is explore. Learn how to ask questions that have depth and content, rather than just superficial things. And empathize—explore and empathize, show authentic empathy, compassion for things, identifying, affirming all those things.

    R is reconcile. If there's been a conflict, resolve it, don't run away from it. Say, "Hey, what's going on? I'm sorry for this. What's happening?" Work through the peacemaking.

    V is to value—is to constantly thank your wife, thank your kids, affirm their virtues, affirm their good behavior. You want to be the kind of person they love being around because when they're around you, they are being encouraged, they're being affirmed.

    And that last letter E is to encourage. Encourage means to give courage or to inspire. The metaphor we use is like eagles. Eagles get up to 10,000, 15,000 feet because they find warm updrafts of air and that takes them up. So we tell people in our seminar, make it your goal to put wind under the wings of every person you meet today. It could be the barista at Starbucks. It could be the receptionist at your front desk. It should certainly be your spouse and your kids. I mean, when daddy's home, the whole household should go, "Daddy's home!" And everybody is just so happy to see you come to the door like that.

    Jeff Zaugg (16:34.088)
    Wow. The SERVE acrostic, thank you for unpacking that. That's actually where I wanted to land because it's just so applicable to us. We can put it into practice today.

    I wanted to give you a moment though, Ken, and there's so much—we're breaking the record on amount of show notes, of practical wisdom we passed along in the show notes here—but is anything else on your heart that you'd want to share with us dads?

    Ken Sande
    The main thing, and it supersedes everything I've said so far, is always bring the gospel. You know, the whole recorded biblical history and everyday life tells us one thing very quickly. As sinful fallen people, we prefer to use the law to justify ourselves and to prove the other person wrong. We always go back to the law, performance-based relationships. And if we can be more focused on bringing the gospel, the hope of what God has done for us—and that's that God-aware component.

    And let me give you an example of this that changed my parenting, Jeff. We homeschooled our children. I call homeschooling accelerated sanctification for mothers. When you're with the little sinners 24-7, everything comes out in the open.

    And so my wife did most of the teaching and I was sort of like the principal. If I was working at home, I'd be the, you know, the disciplinarian at times. So one day I was in my office, I heard the voices—and the voices downstairs. It was actually my daughter. I'm gonna tell the story right now that she's giving me permission to share. I could tell there was a conflict going on. I went down and listened outside the classroom for a minute. I could tell on that particular day that my daughter, Megan, 12 years old, was probably the main player.

    So I stepped in, I said, "Megan, I'd like to talk to you, please." And so we went into the bedroom next to the classroom, which my kids had affectionately dubbed "the dungeon." And you can guess why. So we go in there, I sit down on the bed, Megan is laying down on the floor at my feet with her head up against the nightstand. She crosses her arms, her body goes rigid. You can almost see the force field around her little heart. I mean, it was like the Starship Enterprise. It was just—I looked at her, I said, "I could lecture her for an hour. I will not touch her heart. I will not touch her."

    And I just prayed. I said, "God, what do I do to get through to this little girl?" And it's amazing. When you pray, often God graciously answers our prayers. It's one of the biggest mistakes we make. We don't pray. And so I asked that. I said, "God, what do I do?" And the thought came to mind. I truly believe the Holy Spirit just quickened my mind. And instead of the lecture and the discipline, I looked at my daughter. I said, "Megan, if Jesus was here right now, what do you think he would say to you?"

    And without looking up, she just goes, "Stop controlling your brother." She knew what the issue was. I could have said, "Give yourself the lecture, I'll be back in an hour." She knew exactly what the law said. But it wasn't changing her. The law just restrains, it doesn't change.

    And so I looked at her and I said, "Well, honey, he'd probably get around to that eventually. But before that, if Jesus was sitting right here, here's what I think he would say to you. Megan, I love you. I love you more than you can possibly imagine. I love you so much that before I even made the world, I looked down through time and I saw you. Before the foundations of the world, I chose you as my precious child. And then I made this beautiful world and brought you into it just the right time. I brought you to this family"—both of our kids are adopted—"because I knew they would care for you, love you, nurture you, but most of all, they would tell you again and again and again how much I love you.

    "And Megan, I love you so much that I looked into your life, I saw your life, and I knew that sin would just cause all sorts of problems and would eventually separate us forever and ever, and I just couldn't bear that. And so 2,000 years ago, Megan, I came down into this world and I lived a perfect life. I acquired a perfect spotless record that I could give to you one day. But to make that happen, I went up on a cross. I took all of your sins on my shoulders and I paid for them in full, including the ones you committed the last 15 minutes in the classroom. They've all been paid. In my sight, you're spotless, pure. And Megan, I want to come into your life today and change you. So instead of controlling your brother and resisting your mom, you'll find your greatest joy in serving and blessing them and your friends, because you know those are your happy days when you're serving and loving. And Megan, someday I'm going to come back and I'm going to get you and wrap my arms around you and take you to be with me forever and ever because I love you so much."

    Now all the while I'm saying this, I'm looking at her and her muscles are relaxing, the force field is going down. And then I close with these words, I said, "Megan, one more thing, this is daddy talking, not Jesus. I love you. And no matter whether you're having a good day or a bad day, I will never love you less because Jesus has filled my heart with his love for you."

    At that point, my daughter got up on the bed, laid down with her head on my lap. And she said, "Oh daddy, please pray for me. Please pray Jesus will come into me and change my heart so I can really have good days with mommy and daddy."

    I mean, I could have lectured her for an hour and not touched her heart. So if there's one thing I would encourage dads to take away from this is always bring the gospel. We should be good at paraphrasing. You don't have to memorize word for word, but there are hundreds of verses in the Bible that are gospel. They're what God has done for us in Christ verses, instead of the thou shalt and the shoulds. We're really good at the shoulds. But the ones that God has done—reminding each other.

    And one of the other lessons I learned from that, that changed my parenting. At that moment I realized the most important thing I could do with my kids again and again and again is bring the gospel. Now there can still be consequences, there can still be discipline, but they don't have to be as harsh or as stern as they might be if the hearts are already being softened. But one day my wife, some time after that, she said, "Ken, I love the way that you're bringing the gospel to the kids more and more. Could I ask a favor of you? Could you bring the gospel to me more and more?"

    And I just realized in marriage, we get really good at sort of cutting to the quick and just say, "Well, here's what I think you did wrong." And I just learned that, you know—and there was one night my wife had just had a hard, long day. She's very busy. She serves people. She pours herself out. And I could just tell she was depleted.

    And I just said, "Honey, we're gonna go to bed early tonight. I just—you need some rest." And so we went to bed and I pulled her into my arms and I just started to whisper in her ear every God-related, gospel-related verse I can think of. "Corlette, you're chosen by God before the foundations of the world. He who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion. He looks down on you and says, 'Well done, good and faithful servant.' As far as the East is from the West, so far as he's separated your sins and my sins from us," and I just—Corlette would tell you that is one of the most memorable moments in our married life, is I just brought verse after verse after verse to the gospel.

    And in the lesson—the lesson four in Discovery and Relational Wisdom, I've got several verses that we can just, as examples, that men can memorize the verse and then they can more easily paraphrase it. When you quote chapter and verse to people, they almost feel like you're lecturing them. But when you paraphrase it and just remind them of what God is saying, it's one of the greatest gifts you can bring to your wife and to your children is bring the gospel.

    Jeff Zaugg (24:01.378)
    Thank you Ken. Would you say a short prayer for all of us dads?

    Ken Sande
    You bet. Father, it is such a privilege to bear your title. You are our Heavenly Father, creator of the universe and sustainer of everything in it. And you call us and you give us the privilege of being fathers to our families, of having children and wives that we can nurture and love and care for as we just reflect on how you have modeled that for us, that we can now live that out with our families.

    So God, we just pray you would continue the work that you've begun in us through Christ, conforming us day by day to the image of Christ to grow in us gentleness, kindness, humility, wisdom, self-control, compassion, and empathy. That these would be the qualities. And Lord, that when we do come home, even the last hour before we walk through the door, our wife's heart would be growing more and more eager to see us. Our children would be looking out the window eager to see that car pull up. That our entry into the home every day Lord is one of grace and freshness and warmth and hope and encouragement.

    Lord, we know that as we do that it will affect our home. It will help our wives to grow in grace, our children to grow in grace, and we will be the beneficiaries of it Lord, ultimately as our family—our whole family grows into the likeness of Christ. Please God, give us your spirit that we might grow in this way. In Jesus' name we pray, amen.

    Jeff Zaugg (25:42.136)
    Thank you so much for joining us for episode 388 with Ken Sande. Make sure you jump to the show notes at dadawesome.org/podcast. Just look for episode 388 and we have the links to all the blog posts, the websites, the books mentioned—they're all gonna be there. Also, just, we encourage you to use the show notes, whether it's in your podcast app or on our website to skim back through after you listen to a podcast and just pray, "God, what's the one thing?"

    We wanna be dads with a bias towards action. What's the one thing I'm going to do because of this podcast versus just have intent? Let's be dads of action. Hey, I'm praying for you guys. Have a great week. We'll see you next time.

    • "What would please and honor God right now? The last thing I was thinking about was pleasing and honoring God. I was thinking about vindicating and glorifying myself." - Ken Sande

    • "I could have lectured her for an hour and not touched her heart. So if there's one thing I would encourage dads to take away from this is always bring the gospel." - Ken Sande

    • "Make it your goal to put wind under the wings of every person you meet today. It could be the barista at Starbucks. It could be the receptionist at your front desk. It should certainly be your spouse and your kids." - Ken Sande

    • "The most important thing I could do with my kids again and again and again is bring the gospel. Now there can still be consequences, there can still be discipline, but they don't have to be as harsh or as stern as they might be if the hearts are already being softened." - Ken Sande

 

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387 | The Ripple Effect of Fatherhood, Saying "I'm Sorry," and Going Upstream in Conflict (Ken Sande PART 1)