379 | Building Your Dad Tribe, Ditching the Guilt, and Raising Good People (David Mills)

Experiencing God's LoveBrotherhood & Mentorship
Written By Jeff Zaugg

Episode Description

David Mills believes the mess and chaos of life make the best stories. In this episode, he shares how to infuse more fun and adventure into your parenting journey. You’ll hear real talk about dad guilt, finding your tribe, and why doing life with other men makes all the difference.

  • David Mills believes the mess and chaos of life make the best stories. In this episode, he shares how to infuse more fun and adventure into your parenting journey. You’ll hear real talk about dad guilt, finding your tribe, and why doing life with other men makes all the difference. 


    • An adventure mindset shifts how you view your circumstances so that even the challenging moments become stories worth telling. 

    • Doing hard things awakens the warrior in you.

    • Every parent struggles with parent guilt, so give yourself grace. 

    • Do you have 12 men in your town you could call at 2 a.m. who’d show up, no questions asked? If not, it’s time to build your tribe.

  • David Mills: [00:00:39] We were literally designed for hard times, right? Hard times to create strong men. Men will go buy tickets to watch another man succeed in a hard time. That's because that's what we're designed for. Something in our soul awakens. You start canoeing down a river, something in you comes alive. You realize like, I'm made for that. I'm designed for that, and that's why I'm miserable and I'm depressed when I'm sitting too comfortable for too long. [00:01:07][27.7]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:09] This is episode 379 of Dad Awesome, and this week we have David Mills. He also goes by Goose, joining us for Men's Alliance. I'll introduce him in just a moment here. I wanna remind you guys, I love listening to voice messages from our Dad Awesome community. So write in the show notes, wherever you're listening to this podcast, you can leave up to a 90-second voicemail for Dad Awesome. And I take those voicemails, it can be feedback from the podcast, it could be a question, and it can be a suggestion for a podcast guest, but also just introduce yourself. I'd love to hear about how Dad Awesome has been helpful for you. And if you're interested, let me know. I'm scheduling one-on-one. Calls, one-on-one calls with our community about one or two of these a week, and I've just been loving the chance to schedule these opportunities to connect with men from all around the country to hear about how is the journey of becoming Dad Awesome going. So leave me a voice message, we'd love to invite that. David Mills Goose is the founder and lead dude at Men's Alliance. Men's Alliance has 200 tribes across the United States and these tribes, they meet weekly for a rugged outdoor workout and then a real-world devotional around a fire. So a really simple formula, but outside the box for most men's ministries. I mean, these guys are working out together and then diving into God's Word together around a Fire. Their mission, they're saying, hey, we're bringing men out of isolation, out of their comfort zone, away from their facades. Their motto is tribal, rugged, and real. So David, we had a great conversation. His kids, he's got two kids graduating high school, another teenager, and then one of his kids, he's launched, is like 22 years old. So he's in that phase of fatherhood. We hit a bunch of topics, but I want to encourage you guys, check out Men's Alliance as a resource locally. They've got, again, these over 200 chapters across the country, and it was just really fun getting to know David. And then just, you know, here we are shining a spotlight on another amazing men's ministry doing great work, so thrilled to introduce you guys to David Mills. This is episode 379. How would your wife describe your approach to being a father? How would she just talk about you in the dad life? [00:03:33][143.8]

    David Mills: [00:03:34] What a great question. I can't wait to actually hear her answer. I'm going to ask her this. Perfect. I think she would say, and I hope she would say, fun. I think that that would be very real. I've gotten very, very good over the years at apologizing. I should be, I should teach a class on how to apologize to your teenagers because I've certainly had the practice at doing it. So one of the things my wife and I, we've always tried to do is model how to apologize correctly and how to own your mistakes and admit you're not perfect. And so man, nobody on earth brings your imperfections to the surface like a teenager. And they're, I mean, they're so good at it. They bring out the worst in you and then they point it out to you. And as frustrating as that is, they are usually right. And so that's been one of our approaches is telling them, hey, listen, we've never done this before. You know, this is my first time trying to raise teenagers and have a house full of them. So we have to give each other a lot of grace. They're not perfect and and neither is their dad but we do try to we do try to spend a lot of time together practice having fun together practice forgiveness and modeling how the richest person in the world is the person with the best relationships and and you can't sustain relationships without having a lot of grace, a lot of forgiveness. If you don't have those things, you'll be in relationship poverty. You'll never have good relationships. So this has been one of the messages. I hope that my kids hear from me that... [00:05:40][125.8]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:41] That they've taken away. I'm curious if the adventure side, like with men and forming experiences that have maybe never been done before, like was there an adventure thread with your kids? Is that part of what you bring to the fatherhood? [00:05:53][12.1]

    David Mills: [00:05:53] It's so funny, our email address is the Mills Adventure. Let's see. You know, and my wife and I, we made that a theme in our family very, very early on. I think when we had one kid, maybe after our first kid, we started this theme. And I remember we had this quote from Amelia Earhart in our house, said, life is either a daring adventure or it's nothing. And so, you know, me being in the military and us moving all the time and living overseas, we got to live in Japan for three years. And, you now, my wife and I, we just decided to view everything as an adventure. And that really is a pivot. It really defines kind of how you're gonna view everything that happens to you, whether you're going to be negative, frustrated and complaining when things don't go your way or if you're gonna view it as an adventure and we would always say this is gonna make a great story to tell one day this is going to be a great story to tell and you know when our when our boys were little and then fall and get hurt or they spill the milk or whatever just be like hey this is gonna be a funny story one day and and just trying to cultivate this idea of life as an adventure. It's nothing that you're ever going to perfect, it's never going to follow the script you want it to, it's always going to be messy and just kind of do life this way. We've had a ball, we've had a blast, it has been the adventure that we wanted it to be and to your question about having fun with our kids and stuff, we have always been a camping family and so my wife and I, we've always been. Tent campers and backpackers and kind of turned our nose up a little bit at the RV folks You know, we're like, oh you're not real camping and and then the older and older we got we we tried an RV for a few years and as you get older you need you start like doing more stuff for your back and But we took our boys camp in when they were in diapers. We were tent camping And I remember one time, we've got this photo. We took, we went tent camping and we went fishing from a canoe with my oldest when he was probably like one and a half or two and we're potty training him. And we brought the potty on the canoe. My wife's on one side of the canoe, I'm on one of the side of canoe. There's way too many lines with hooks attached, swinging around. There's snacks and there's a potty. Yes. And then there's fish, you know? And so fortunately we didn't flip that day, but I think that picture of me and my wife and kids on a canoe with the potty, that's a picture of our life right there. [00:09:10][196.6]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:09:10] Yeah. Well, that jumps me into, I mean, this, this I discovered as I researched for this conversation, but the phrase hard times make great men. I mean that goes for making great boys, making great young women, like hard times it does make. So I'd love to hear you just kind of riff on for the family, but also for men in our culture today, both sides. [00:09:35][24.7]

    David Mills: [00:09:37] Boy, that's so true, and you know, we've had people on, personally, I love that quote. And I know not everybody does, and it's a little controversial, but I think it's spot on, and I love it. And I take it in a different step as well, in that I believe we were literally designed for hard times. It's funny, I was watching one of the Mad Max movies. There's like so many of them now. I was watchin' one of Mad Max's movies with my 17-year-old son. It's insane, right? It's like high speed chases through the desert with explosions and mechanical problems. Trucks are breaking down and people are crawling under the trucks repairing them while they're getting shot at and doing 80 miles. And I'm watching this movie with my son and we're totally into it. And I am thinking to myself, why on earth do we love this movie so much? Why do guys love this so much. And to the point, I think that's a hard time, right? Hard times create strong men. That you're watching a scene of a very hard time and we're drawn towards it. Yeah, we are. Men will go buy tickets to watch another man succeed in a hard times. And I believe that's because that's what we're designed for and that's why something in our soul like awakens when we watch something like that or we go. Canoeing down a river. Yeah, you start canoeing down. A river something in you comes alive Yes, right and you even just watching a movie like that because you realize like I'm made for that I'm designed for that and that's why I'm miserable and I'm depressed when I'm sitting Too comfortable for too long in the house, right? It's like I got to get up. I got a go somewhere I got do something. I gotta let's plan a camping trip or something because It's not just that it makes us better men, which it does, but it also awakens in us, you know, the heart that God designed us to have. We were born to do hard things. You know, sometimes we forget that God gave Adam a job before he gave him a wife. Right? It's like, man, we are designed to do stuff and we're designed to do hard stuff. And if we're not doing it, if we are not living as we're designed, if you don't use a product the way it was designed to be used, it's never going to work quite right for you. And I think in our culture today, we see a lot of men not being used the way they were designed, right? It's like using an iPhone as a paperweight. Like, okay, you can kind of do that. You can make it work, but that thing's never gonna be living up to its potential until you, first of all, you got to figure out what it was designed to do. And the only way you're gonna do that is by reading its manual. And our owner's manual is the word of God. It's the Bible. And you read that and you realize like, this is what we were made for. This is what were designed for. Men are actually made to be warriors. And now it all makes sense. Now you're like... No wonder I love watching Mad Max, because I was designed to be a warrior, right? I've just got to channel it properly and be a Warrior for God. [00:13:11][214.5]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:12] Oh man, I just spotted my oldest daughter, she's 11. So I've got four daughters, oldest is 11. So we're a chapter, definitely a chapter younger than your family. And we got the girls, but I spotted her reading a book and she's a reader. And I tell her, I'm like, you're a leader and leaders are readers, way to go. But sometimes the book captures her for too long of periods. I'm, like, let's go out for a jog. Let's go running. Let's do some burpees. My girls are all Spartans. They all did the Spartan race just a few weeks ago. So these obstacle course races, but I I think today's culture the screen Reading I'm still always gonna be a fan of reading but the screens the video game culture the easy Let's not push our physical body that was created to do hard things I'd love to hear how did you how have you played this balance in this chapter of your kids? I mean cell phones are very much around for raising your kids Yeah, how have your balance the screens and outside and exercise and and trying to move our bodies the way God intended them to. [00:14:12][59.6]

    David Mills: [00:14:12] This is such an enormous question. I think it's a question that every single parent has. And I'm sure there's so much out there on it. Books and podcasts and all these tips and advice and stuff. So I'll just tell you, first of all, I don't know how to do it. Like, I haven't figured it out. I'm not the the go-to expert. I always think man, did we give our kids phones too early? Did we give them stuff too young? We thought, you know, every parent, you think you're doing it right, you're doin' it the best you can and you're lookin' at all these pieces of input. Well, here's what this one article says and here's this expert says, right? And us being on the front of the bow wave of we're the first generation of parents to have this question. And probably a few generations from now, they'll have it more figured out. But we're all making it up from scratch right now. So my oldest son, this was funny, when he was in middle school, at some point seventh or eighth grade, something like that, we gave him a flip phone. And like it had no internet access. It was a flip-phone and you could use it call your parents. And man, he was super not thrilled about that, right? Like all the other kids, it is school, of course, according to him. Every other kid in school had the latest iPhone and he had a flip phone. And we were like, this is your phone because he played lots of sports and we were always picking him up for practices and taking him to tournaments and stuff. He played everything and so we were like, logistically you need to call us and we need to call you so you get a flip phone. All the way down to now our youngest, you know, that was my son who's now 22. My daughter who just turned 15, I'm sad to say she has my old iPhone. She gets sad to hand me down iPhone. And you know so it's like, are we slipping a little? Are we, should we be stricter? Should we be better? Listen, I think every single parent struggles with parent guilt. There's dad guilt, there's mom guilt. You're like, you know what, should we be making our own pasta? Should we be composting? Should we using cloth diapers? Should we? [00:16:57][164.6]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:16:58] So many [00:16:58][0.3]

    David Mills: [00:16:58] schooling. Should we have a garden? Should we raise our own chicken? It's it's like listen get some pampers, buy some canned spaghetti sauce, do some things the easy way. Don't make life so difficult on yourself as a parent that you burn yourself out. Give yourself grace, you're not gonna get it right. You're gonna give them something too early. You'll crush it in one area. There's probably areas that I've been a better dad than most dads. And there are definitely some areas where I've seen a below average. [00:17:32][33.5]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:32] Area. [00:17:32][0.0]

    David Mills: [00:17:33] And you know what parenting is the hardest job in the world and so as parents I would say give yourself grace man you're gonna give them a phone too early or too late and you're going to feed them some unhealthy meals because you're in a hurry don't worry about any of that don't get so wrapped up around the details the most important thing is just that we're there for them that we are praying for them that we're hugging them. I tried so hard. I tried to make my kids readers. This is hilarious. I am a huge reader. I read to my kids every day when they were young. And as soon as they were old enough to say dad, please stop reading, they did. And they're not readers. And I've had to let go of that. I'm looking at my wife, I'm like, how on earth did they turn out as on readers. They were surrounded. They grew up on a pile of books with me reading to them. And so some stuff that we really try hard to make them, it backfires and they don't do it. And so that's one area where I'm like, okay, you know what? I had to tell my son a couple years ago, he was probably like 14 or 15. And he expressed to me that he was feeling a lot of guilt at not being a reader. And I had, I had take that one. And he was like, can you please stop trying to get me to read? I don't want to read, but every time we have these conversations, I'm feeling guilty. And I was like oof, okay. You know what, dude? You don't have to read. I'm gonna stop pushing you to read and you know what? He's young, maybe he'll become a reader in his 30s. Who knows? But as parents, I think, especially American parents, We can err in the opposite direction by trying too hard to make them too perfect in too many categories areas. It's like, listen, they're not all going to be star athletes or road scholars or homeschool teachers or neurosurgeons. I had a buddy of mine, he was homeschooling years before we started homeschool. So he was giving me some really good homeschool advice. And I was like asking him questions about like, well, what about this program? What about this programming? How do they get into this school? And he just looks at me and he goes, dude, he goes I don't know the answer to any of that stuff you're talking about. He goes, our goal is just to raise good humans. And that hit me and I took that from him and I made that my goal I shared that with my wife I was like listen I think we're worried about too many little details and programs I said let's just make make it our goal just to try to raise good human beings and as parents we got to give ourselves grace we got, to give our spouse grace kids grace and ourselves and that alone right there when we do that and we say that to our kids and we give them permission to not play a level sport or be readers. We can lower the anxiety level in our house. And, you know, we've got a huge national epidemic of anxiety amongst teenagers. And I think, I have no study to support me here, but I think that the kids are anxious because the parents are anxious. You see, you see pictures now, there's anxious dogs. There's anxious pets, right? Anxiety is contagious. And if you live in a house where everybody's anxious you're gonna have trouble with anxiety. And so, I think parents could reduce anxiety with their kids by just chill out and stop trying to make them so great. Just enjoy your time with them, it's very limited. I've already had one leave and I'm about to have two more leave. And so you realize, you're like, you know what, time is really short. This was a super long way to answer the question about what age do you give your kid a cell phone. My answer is love it. I don't know do the best you can sit and don't beat yourself up because you're gonna get it wrong [00:21:56][262.9]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:21:57] Yeah. Dave, I want to point out, which I love long answers, by the way, when you said lower anxiety level, but the other thing that you're increasing by your connection that would happen with your son when he was able to have a conversation about this I feel when you're pushing reading on me. I just want to celebrate that type of connection that a son can say to you, hey, this is how I feel when you're pushing this. Can we back that off? That connection and warmth that you're safe here is such a big deal. [00:22:27][30.4]

    David Mills: [00:22:28] It is that really is and you know i've i've learned to prioritize relationship over just about anything else i mean just about anything else uh i wish that my son and i were reading c.s lewis together but instead we're watching mad max and you know what i don't care as long as we're together as long as as long he wants to be with me and we're in a relationship together. Take it, take the win and enjoy watching Mad Max. [00:23:05][37.2]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:05] Yes. And the upstream to all these parenting tactics. A small percentage of our conversations are about tactics. What do you think about this and how have you approached that? Who am I becoming as dad? What am I prioritizing? We talked about doing hard things already of like that hard times make good men. The other side though, you've got three... I mean, there's several just areas I want to dial in on that are at the center of men's alliance, the that you founded and you lead. Isolation is one of them. So you say we're bringing men out of isolation, out of their comfort zone, which we talked about a little bit already, and away from their facades. Could you? You can pick any of those three or all three together. I'd just love to hear you express why this is such a big deal. [00:23:51][45.6]

    David Mills: [00:23:51] Oh, sure, man. And you know what? This is, this is equally as big a deal for kids. You know, my, my focus, my ministry is on men, but those three things are equal problems for kids, for teens. And so, you know, just to touch on them all three real briefly, the motto in Men's Alliance, our motto is Tribal Rugged Real, because each one of those words is the opposite. That problem that you just described. And so the first big problem is isolation. And I see this so rampant with dads. They go to work where they have to, you have to be that man at work who has it all together. You have to the professionally competent achiever at work, and that's great. But you also have to stop being that man as soon as you come home and a lot of men don't know how to turn that off. They don't how to hang that hat up when they walk in the door and put on the dad or husband hat and so that I don't need any help I've got it all together competent achiever hat that we wear all day at work. That hat will destroy you at home. It will destroy your friendships, your relationships, and everything. Because it's isolating and so we want men to close their laptops and stop pretending they've got everything together, stop pretending you're fine, be real, that's the real part, and get outside, get out of your comfort zone, that is the rugged part. So if we can get men out of isolation, out of their comfort zones and away from facades of having it together, I think what we will do as a culture is we will be able to greatly reduce the suicide rates, the addiction rates, the depression and the anxiety that men, these things are bigger problems with adult men than they are any other demographic, which surprises a lot of people. You tend to think of like, you know, the stereotypical person most at risk for anxiety, depression, addiction and suicide being like. Teenager or something. No, it's a 55 year old man. He's way more at risk because he's carrying the weight of the world on his shoulders. He has got the family and the mortgage and the career and he can't afford to mess up and he knows it. So he's holding the whole world together and he cant let on that he's terrified, that he is frustrated and that leads men to their breaking point. And so. With men's alliance, we wanna get men outdoors around a fire, bonding, building that band of brothers that can only be done through a really strenuous workout because that's how men bond is through shared physical struggle. So first we're bonding over that and then we're being real. And as soon as a guy starts talking about his problem, his real struggle, absolutely guaranteed 100% of the time other men around that fire have the same problem. And so it's just, it's like the floodgates just open and you're like, why are we all, why are all not talking more about this stuff? So that's our motto, that's those three elements and you know, as we think about them as men, it's important to remember our teenagers have the problem. One of the game changers for me was sitting at my dining room table with my kids. Drawing the questions out of them. Like, give voice to the questions you know they must have. So I remember one time I said to, I just threw it out there at the dining room table one night, I was like, haven't you kids ever wondered, have you guys ever wondered how do we know that somebody didn't just make up the Bible? How do we that it's true? And like, the kids were I'm like, yes, I've been wondering that. Resonates. Right, so. They're wondering it. They've got the questions and they're afraid to ask. They're afraid they might get in trouble for asking. And a lot of dads don't want them to ask because they don't know the answer anyway. So you're creating this house of silence, this house with cards. And the second one college professor destroys it. The kids are gonna think it was destroyed. The truth is it was never destroyed. The answers have always been there. So dads, when you start asking the question for your kid, hey, haven't you ever wondered? Hey, have you ever been curious about how we know, how we can actually prove that the resurrection occurred? Kids are like, you're kidding, really? Yes, I've wondered this. And so then we just have a good conversation. They didn't even have to ask the question, but they're learning. And I have found that the best moments for talking with my kids. When we're riding together in the truck running errands together. When I get a kid in the truck and we're going to the grocery store, we're going to a gas station and I just open the door. If you just crack the door open dad, all you got to do is crack the open and that kid will know that their faith is real. Yes. They'll be able to defend it and they won't become a statistic when they go to college. [00:29:49][357.1]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:29:49] Dave, I wanted to, just before we kind of come in for landing here and have you pray, a short prayer for us, was there any, just one or two more minutes, anything on your heart that you're like, I want the dads to hear this. Any last thoughts? [00:30:01][11.3]

    David Mills: [00:30:01] Oh man, it would definitely be dads, you need a tribe. Like you cannot, you would be an absolute fool to try to do this by yourself. Like, don't try to go this alone. The myth of the lone ranger has been prevalent in our culture. The truth of the matter is everything important and big that's ever been done was done by a group. It was done a team, it was done by a platoon, it's was done by a posse, it done by tribe. Nothing gets done by the individual. That's a myth and you've got to reject it. And so, a good test for men that are like, well, you know, I don't know what he means by tribe, but I've got some friends. Okay, here's the test. Here's how to know if you have a tribe. Do you have 12? Phone numbers of men who live in the same town with you. That's key. We are not talking about your buddies that live two states over. You have 12 men in your phone that you could call at 2 a.m. That will be at your house, no questions asked. If you do, congratulations. You're in a very rare group. You've got yourself a valuable tribe. Keep doing what you're doing and you know, nurturing those relationships, but most men don't. Most men, they would be thrilled if they had two to three men in their town that they could call. But you think about this, this is the example that Jesus set for us. This isn't Dave Mills's idea. Jesus, before he started his ministry, He formed his tribe. He built his tribe and notice this he went and he found them and he made it happen. So he took the initiative. He didn't sit at home saying, I'm always the one who initiates lunch, how come nobody ever calls me? That's a ridiculous question. You've been blessed with the ability to be the starter. You're the starter, you're the guy who makes the calls. You're, the guy, who goes around and tells men, hey drop your fishing nets let's go get lunch at Mission Barbecue. Right? So That's what Jesus did. And we have to do the same. If Jesus needed 12 buddies, why would we think we need any less? So that's my number one message to man is build your tribe. [00:32:41][160.0]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:32:42] Yes. Dave, thank you for this charge. Can you say just a short prayer over all the dads listening? [00:32:48][5.8]

    David Mills: [00:32:48] Father God, I just thank you for this opportunity here, Lord, to exercise the freedom that we have in this country, to talk to men across a podcast platform, across a video, to pray out loud in your name. Lord, you've given us so much, so many resources and so many freedoms and help us to not them help us to not squander them help us to Take this fight to the enemy every single day. God, help us to be better husbands, fathers, and leaders. Help us to become the men that you designed us to be, God. We pray this in your name. [00:33:29][40.8]

    Jeff Zaugg: [00:33:33] Thanks so much for joining us for episode 379 with David Mills. All the conversation links, links to the Men's Alliance website. David's book are all gonna be at dadawesome.org slash podcast. So I wanna encourage you guys to check out those, you know, we have transcripts, we have the top quotes, the top takeaways are all going to be at that website. And again, encourage you to leave Dad Awesome a voice message. We'd love to hear from you. Looking forward to scheduling a couple one-on-one phone calls every week. And those are so fun to listen to your voice messages. And then I reach back and get those set up. So, guys, thank you for being a part of our community. So grateful for the ever growing movement of Dad Awesome. And it's because of the dads in this community. So thank you for listening. Thank you for sharing this podcast or other Dad Awesome episodes that have been impactful. Praying for you guys. Have a great week. [00:33:33][0.0]

    [1984.1]

    • "I believe we were literally designed for hard times... It's not just that it makes us better men, which it does, but it also awakens in us, you know, the heart that God designed us to have. We were born to do hard things." - David Mills [00:09:37]

    • "You would be an absolute fool to try to do this by yourself. Like, don't try to go this alone. The myth of the lone ranger has been prevalent in our culture. The truth of the matter is everything important and big that's ever been done was done by a group." - David Mills [00:30:01]

 

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