327 | The Science of the Brain, Emotionally-Focused Parenting, and Creating Moments of Intimacy (Kyle Wester)
Episode Description
Kyle Wester joins us to unpack the science of your kid’s brain—from birth to adulthood. You’ll discover how connection shapes their emotional development and why sincere apologies pave the way for deeper intimacy in your relationship.
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Kyle Wester is a licensed professional counselor and Parenting Coach who has been working with children for over 20 years. Kyle and his wife, Sarah, are founders of Parenting Legacy and host The Art of Raising Humans podcast. They have been married for 22 years and have three children.
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· Your anger says more about you than your kids.
· The brain has three key developmental stages: brainstem, limbic system, and prefrontal cortex.
· To move out of the limbic system, you need connection.
· Have high expectations while offering high support.
· Emotion-focused parenting is an inside-out model that reflects what God does with us.
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· Get 15% off the DadAwesome Store During the Mother’s Day Sale
· Parenting Legacy Counseling & Coaching
· Email Kyle Wester at kyle@artofraisinghumans.com
· The Art of Raising Humans Podcast
· Anatomy of the Soul by Curt Thompson
· Sacred Parenting by Gary Thomas
· Raising An Emotionally Intelligent Child by John Gottman
· No-Drama Discipline by Daniel Siegel
· Parenting from the Inside Out by Daniel Siegel
· The Whole-Brain Child by Daniel Siegel
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Podcast Intro: [00:00:01] Being a great father takes a massive amount of courage. Instead of being an amazing leader and a decent dad, I want to be an amazing dad and a decent leader. The oldest dad in the world gave you this assignment, which means you must be ready for it. As a dad, I get on my knees and I fight for my kids. Let us be those dads who stop the generational pass down of trauma. I want encounters with God where He teaches me what to do with my kids. I know I'm going to be an awesome dad because I'm gonna give it my all.
Kyle Wester: [00:00:39] I want to make these moments about intimacy, about us growing together. So how could we do it? So, I would say to my kid, I would say, hey, earlier today I yelled. Do you think my anger was about you or about me? And initially they would always say about them and I would say, honey, my anger's never about you, my anger is always telling you about me. And then, and then they would stop, kind of like surprised. I would say, can I tell you what it says about me? And they, now they're curious. They'd be like, what? And then I would say to them, I was afraid. And then they would say, afraid of what? And I say, I was afraid I was losing control of the situation. I was afraid my voice no longer had any power in your life.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:01:15] Welcome back to DadAwesome. My name is Jeff Zaugg, and we have Kyle Wester joining for episode 327. Today's conversation is not going to disappoint. I had already heard Kyle unpacking just his passion and specific kind of frameworks that he has to help parents on the Aro podcast. So Joey and Heath over at Aro, and we'll link this in the show notes, if you guys don't know who these guys are. I already have interviewed them and featured the Aro box, this incredible tool to get our minds, eyes, focus off of our screens and more to what matters most, our kids. So anyways, that's a little side plug for Aro. But Kyle, man, he was just like fire hydrant. Like wow. I was like, I need to pull over my bicycle and take notes because there is so much wisdom. And I heard him there, I was like, can you guys introduce me? And here we are, Kyle and I jumped on for a conversation and like I said, this is not going to disappoint. The show notes are going to be like packed with, here's the 19 actionable next steps for you guys. So this is one of those podcasts you might need to hit pause a couple times. Hey, before we roll into it, though, I want to remind you Mother's Day is coming up in a couple of weeks and we have the special at the DadAwesome store. So we are selling amazing coffee mugs, hats, t-shirts, track jackets. There's might be a couple other items. They're all for dads, not for moms. So that's kind of funny, you're buying yourself a gift for Mother's Day. But the code is momawesome to get 15% off. And we're just promoting, encouraging and maybe every time you wear your DadAwesome gear or you have your DadAwesome's Fellow coffee mug tumbler, you're like, whoa, I'm holding the mug. I'm enjoying a good cup of coffee. I'm going to go be DadAwesome. I'm going to serve my wife. I'm going to serve my kids. I'm going to pursue their hearts. So that's our hope is it's a nudge for you to stay DadAwesome. Keep being DadAwesome on this journey of pursuing their hearts. But also you can share with others. It could be a great reminder to share with others the mission of DadAwesome and invite other guys in. Like I said, we have, most episodes are hundreds and many of our episodes are thousands of dads listening and you having some DadAwesome gear can help reach more dads. So commercial ended. All right, here we go back to Kyle Wester. This is my conversation, episode 327. Get out your notepad and your pen. Let's take some notes. Let's learn. Let's be dads of action. Here's the conversation. Can you help introduce your family, start with your wife and kids, kind of age range and something that made you smile recently in the dad life.
Kyle Wester: [00:03:55] So my wife and I've been married going on 22 years, this year. So close to 22. We have three kids, Abby, who's 14, Brennan who's 11, and Ellie, who is 7. And, Ellie was the one who completed our family. I mean, I was done after Abby and Brennan. I'm like, we did it, boy and girl, back to back, we did it. And then I remember my wife one day we're swinging the kids in the backyard, and she said, Kyle, I think I've always felt like we're supposed to have three. And so I was like, are you serious? We're finally sleeping. And, so Ellie came along and she has, definitely, like, her name means shining light. And so she's definitely been a shining light. So I would say something that really man put a smile on my face recently, it was, we went to Colorado. We spent some time on a vacation. And, when we do a vacation like that, I'm always curious with the kids what they enjoy the most about these trips, because we like to go to Colorado a lot. We really love the mountains. And so my older two kids, I think, said something I expected, you know, that they said, hey, we love the mountains. We love coming over and seeing the mountains appear in the horizon. You know, the other one said, I love seeing our friends that we get to hang out with. But when it came to my youngest, when it came to Ellie, she kind of surprised me because she said, I just love the car ride. And I said, you love the car ride, like it's like 12 hours in the car. Like, the car ride? And she said, it's like the only time that we're all together, all five of us, for just an extended period of time with no distractions. We're just all together. And I thought that was really interesting that she said that's what she looks forward to the most. So that that put a big smile on my face because I, I really felt like my wife and I have been intentional about that. That we want them to understand that the journey is just as important as the destination. And that's something we've tried to emphasize in our own personal lives, but also wanted to instill in them. And then Abby, I mean, Ellie tells me it's it's working so that she's she's doing it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:05:52] I love that. So Ellie's name means shine bright or shining light? Which one was it?
Kyle Wester: [00:05:56] Yeah, shining light. And then her middle name is Marie. So it means shining light of my beloved.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:06:02] Wow, wow. I kind of flip them immediately of like, man, I am the beloved. And then I get to shine and oh my goodness, love her name. How do you, how do we raise kids who shine, who who are bright, adding brightness around them, like, give me some just top of mind thinking around that concept?
Kyle Wester: [00:06:18] Man. Well, I mean, the way I would say that that's that's a big deal to us. I mean, I would say almost like I know a lot of people maybe don't think of it this way, but I think success, I was actually thinking a lot about this on the Colorado trip. Success for us, when I look at my kids and I know that we are doing it well, that we are succeeding as parents, is when I see the fruit of the spirits easily pouring out of their daily life, right. And and so to me, what's neat is when you tie that in to the brain science and in the brain science, that when we, all of us as human beings, when we are at our best and we are really like able to show up, be seen, bring more light to a dark place, right. It's when we're in the prefrontal cortex. And what's interesting, Jeff, about the prefrontal cortex is I can only get there when I feel safe and loved. And so, so when would I notice, like, there's a few times on this trip where maybe my kids, they they were acting in a way that wasn't congruent with who I know they are. Like like I could tell they looked a little insecure in a moment, right. And what I knew, because of what my wife and I do as parent coaches, is I knew, oh, in that moment, somehow they don't feel safe and loved in this moment. For some reason, they feel like they can't fully show up as themselves. They got to like my, my, my daughter Abby, when she gets nervous or anxious, she gets really talkative. And so she's talk, talk talk talk, talk. So I'm watching her just like, talk nonstop. And later on I follow up with her and I'm just like, hey, Abby, what was going on in that situation? It seemed like you were just talking a lot. She says, I know, dad. I knew I was doing it when I was doing it. She's like, but in that moment, I just felt really nervous when I was around those people, and the silence was awkward and I was like, I just, I wanted to fill the space. And I was like, honey, you, you don't need to. Like, like you being quiet is just as beautiful as you talking. So, so you don't have to do, I know your strength is typically the talking, but if you pause, you allow that other person to shine, just like your shine. And you don't need to fill that space. So, so I say, in short, I kind of been thinking about this idea, Jeff, of just every moment I'm looking for, what is the fruit of the spirit that we're trying to cultivate more in the kids? Is it love? Is it joy? Is it peace? Is is it kindness? Is it meekness? You know, what are those? And as I see them growing in them, that's that's when I really believe they're shining.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:08:42] Yes. I've heard you, in some of my research this conversation, talk about, you want every area, every room, every team, every class, every home, every vehicle to, that your kids are in, to be better because they were there. Did I get that right? As far as a goal.
Kyle Wester: [00:08:58] Totally.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:08:59] Can you expound on that?
Kyle Wester: [00:09:00] Yeah, I tell that, Jeff, a lot of parents, when I teach parents that they like the model, we have high expectations, but we offer highest support. So, so, so really a lot of the conflicts that are happening with our kids is we've got expectations that are high. And I think that's good. I want us to to believe our kids can do great things, right. So we have these expectationg. But, but lot times we're not offering the support that's needed for them to succeed. So then over time, we actually start lowering our expectations because we're like, dang, my kid can't seem to do that. So I try to tell parents, when I'm working, I have super high expectations on my kids. I really believe that every place they are is going to be better because they are there. And if for some reason that isn't happening and I'm noticing that, then me and my wife are wondering what is the supports my kid needed in that moment to be able to really shine the way God intended them to in that moment? And you know where that starts, Jeff? It starts with some real intentional, my wife and I have been real intentional about this, even on silly things like, let's say I'm going to go to the grocery store and there's a podcast, maybe I want to listen to DadAwesome. I'm thinking, like, I'm going to listen to DadAwesome on my trip to the grocery store. So I'm kind of looking forward to it, I want to hear what Jeff's got to say today. And then what I will do, every time, I will say to my family, hey, I'm going to the store, does anybody want to go with me? And nine times out of ten, somebody does. They'll say, I want to go. And part of me for a minute goes, dang.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:10:27] I know, just a little time. Yeah, yeah.
Kyle Wester: [00:10:29] I kind of wanted to listened that podcast. But, but I want to offer that invitation because I want them to know that I believe everywhere I go, it's better if they are with me. And so, so when I went to the, when I go to the grocery store the whole time, I'm shifting my focus, not from, oh, I didn't get to listen to that podcast, to what is this moment about? How do I get to enjoy my kid now, right? And then when we get home, I'm very intentional about getting in the garage, and this is something I've had to practice, not something I initially did. And I look back in the back seat and I'll say, hey, thanks for going. It was so much better with you, with me, than without, you know. And I want them to hear that, and I want them to have it firmly grounded, because I believe it's what God is constantly saying to them, that every moment is better when they show up.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:11:20] Wow, Kyle. So, you actually are not curiously looking at, for, maybe you're doing this at the same time in parallel, but, you're actually choosing to say and affirm that it's better with them, regardless of how it actually was. Am I, did I get that right?
Kyle Wester: [00:11:36] 100%. Yeah. Because think about it, that's like, to me, that's what God is always whispering to us. He's not, He's not looking around trying to go, how do I, He legitimately believes no matter how I'm acting or whatever, that it is better. Can I tell you what where I kind of got this, Jeff? It was kind of funny. This was great insight. And I'm sharing this for your podcast listeners, because this goes down to why it's so important to have men in your life who will speak truth to you, right. Who will really be honest with you. And I remember when my wife and I first got married, and we would go to these like groups at church, and I'm a very talkative person. My wife is not, right. So we would go to these groups and I used to think it was cute, like when we're dating, how little she would talk at the groups and I'd be like, oh, look, they asked if she had anything to offer and she didn't have anything to offer. But as we got married and I'm trying to, like, create a community, I would be like, I'd leave those groups, Jeff, and I'd be like, did you not have anything to say? Like, why don't you say something? And she'd be like, I just couldn't think of anything. And I'd be like, how could you not think of anything? Like we're right in this group. So, so I began to, like, be very critical of my wife and see her as less than me. And so one day, I'm talking to my friend about this, and I'm just kind of complaining. You know, I'm like, oh, Sarah's, yeah, yeah. And I'm telling him, and he says to me, he says, hey, Kyle, Can I ask you a question? Do you believe that group is better off for Sarah being there? And I said, yes. Do you believe it's only if she says something? I said, well, I mean, no, but but the point of going is to share. And he said, okay, Kyle, so you believe the group is better off just for her being there, whether she share something or not? Yes. You believe her presence has enough value and worth, she doesn't need to somehow create that with her words, right? Yeah. Do you believe you could show up and not say anything? And I was like, Jeff, I was like, I don't know if I believe that. And he said, I think you're making your issue, her issue.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:13:31] Oh, wow.
Kyle Wester: [00:13:31] That maybe your wife is showing you that you actually don't have to go and talk to make that moment valuable, and maybe you just showing up is enough and that God is fine whether you say something or you don't. Just be there, you know, and your presence changed. So that really touched me. And it really shifted things in our marriage. But then it became, kind of, just like we just would not let ourselves say things like, oh, I just need time away from the kids. Oh, I just... Because our time is so limited and I believe every moment is better with them than without.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:14:06] So this is so helpful, Kyle. So I'm thinking about real practically, you're saying high expectations that these spaces will be better because my kids are there, high support. And one of the examples you just gave is actually speaking life, speaking value, speaking it is better because you're there, first. So that's one, that's practical to get there. Any other just high support examples of this is how to help guide our kids to make that place actually better.
Kyle Wester: [00:14:32] Oh yeah, I mean 100%. So even like what I was saying about Abby, this came up while we're in Colorado and we're at a friend's house, and I noticed two, two specific things. I noticed how my older daughter was talking a lot to fill the space, right. So we're at this guy's house who they barely know, right. And I'm noticing just a lack of curiosity. My daughter, as 14 year olds can be, she's more self-focused, not really thinking about asking curious questions, right. And then my son, who's a real deep thinker, this guy starts talking about the work he does. And it's really interesting work that he does with energy and like, with, with, like electric cars. And it's like very cool. And so I'm just like, thinking in my head, Jeff, like, oh my God, Brennan would love this. So I look at Brennan at one point, I throw him like a softball. I say, hey, Brennan, do you have any questions for him? And Brennan's like, no. And then I'm like, what? So, so so what that looks like is I just keep that in there. And then I start to, I start to model to them what I am wanting them to do. So I look at the guy and I say, hey, can you tell my kids exactly what it is you do and what you love about it? And so he starts to begin to tell about this. And then I just started using those skills. I started being curious. I started asking and you could see the guy get excited, like he was so pumped to talk about this. And so when we left, I just said, hey, guys, could could I give you some feedback about what happened in there? I'm just kind of curious. So that's when Abby said, I know. I was just so anxious. So then that's when we we got to say, well, honey, how could we help you? And she said, hey, mom, if I'm doing that, could you say this? And I said, hey...
Jeff Zaugg: [00:15:59] Ah, signal. Yep.
Kyle Wester: [00:16:00] Yeah. And I said, hey, honey, did you notice how I ask those questions? And how he... She oh, yeah, I did notice that, Dad. That's what I'm saying. So so maybe let's next time we have a situation like that, I'll remind you to be more curious then, actually. And then I said to my son Brennan, what was going on with you? And he's like, I was just so lost in my head about all of the things he was saying. And I'm like, and I hear that, son, I just want you to know that you may not get another time with that guy, right. Like like you had an opportunity there, and I just don't want you to miss it. Okay? So. So how could I, how can I help you next time be able to take this, like, real deep thinking you have and really reach out to this person? Because that could create a really great opportunity for you in the future.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:16:41] Yeah. Kyle, I this is coming back full circle. You mentioned a little bit about brain science. It just briefly at the beginning of the conversation and and the prefrontal cortex. But also there's, I believe the way you've learned is kind of broken down is there's like brain stem, like very faint flight, freeze. And then there's another step and then there's the prefrontal cortex. And I'm thinking about the curiosity moments that maybe your son in that moment with an adult with job talk, right. Maybe just didn't quite feel safe or confident, right. So then he's not going to be curious, Did I get that? Is that kind of why?
Kyle Wester: [00:17:15] 100 %. No, you're right, I love it. So yeah, Jeff, and pointing out, he couldn't be that in that moment, right. So it wasn't that he somehow chose not to be, just where he was at in the brain, he was overwhelmed with all the information. So that's where, and I love tying this, and when I'm talking to believers, Jeff, this is what God does with us, right. So like in this moment, I'm kind of like God's presence to my son, to where I can help him because I'm in my prefrontal cortex. I'm not feeling insecure in that moment. So I, instead of looking at my son going, what is your problem, Brennan? Like, come on, son. And that, that, that thought did cross my mind.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:17:49] Shame, right? That'd be shame.
Kyle Wester: [00:17:51] Yes, yeah. Like, how have I not trained him correctly to be confident in these moments, right? And I could feel that happen. But then I had to pull that back and understand he doesn't mean to do this. Like in this moment, he just doesn't know how to do it. If he did, he would. If he knew how to do the thing I'm asking, I believe. So it's like in that high expectations model, I tell parents, I only let myself think two things. So if my kid is not reaching those expectations, the two things I let myself think is either they don't know how or they don't believe they can. Either a lack of teaching or it's a lack of confidence. Now, some parents will say, well, sometimes they're doing it on purpose. And I say, oh, that can be true, right. No doubt. But if I let myself go to that space, then I'm actually putting myself against my kid. Now, Yeah, now it's, now I am opposing them. And the only answer to that is I have to change my kid. So, like like like, you know, there's been moments where maybe I walk upstairs and maybe my daughter is mad at me, and I've asked her to clean her room, and I go and the room is not clean. If I go upstairs and I believe she didn't clean it because she's trying to, like, stick it to me, then the only reaction I'm going to have is a negative one.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:04] Yeah.
Kyle Wester: [00:19:05] Right. Whereas instead, if, let's say she actually did it to say I'm mad at you. Well, I don't need to play that game. Yeah, I am for her. I'm not against her.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:16] Yes.
Kyle Wester: [00:19:17] And so if she's mad at me, she can tell me she doesn't need to, like, not clean her room to show me that. She can just say, dad, I'm upset with you right now. And then I can say, okay, let's talk about what you're upset about, right. And then that's where we really grow intimacy in our relationship with our kids. Whereas if I just think we're against each other, all I'm going to do is cause isolation. We're going to push away from each other.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:19:40] And that's kind of what you did with your wife when she wasn't sharing at that small group, you almost slipped down into a little bit of, you went against her a little bit, I think. Yeah, yeah.
Kyle Wester: [00:19:49] Yeah. And when you're doing the brain stem, so that when you're in the limbic system, the emotional center of the brain, like I was with my wife, is you can only see the world through your perspective. So in that moment, I'm going to see my wife as not good enough. And actually, in your marriage, it will discourage you being married to that person. So it doesn't, it hurts your marriage to think less of that person. Whereas instead I could just see my wife. My wife's just being my wife. Like, this used to be cute at one point, and the only thing that changed was my perspective of it.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:20:22] So, are the three, let me make sure I have these three with the brain science. It's the brain stem, the limbic system, and the prefrontal cortex? Did I get that right? Those those are the three?
Kyle Wester: [00:20:31] Yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:20:31] Can you explain the three?
Kyle Wester: [00:20:33] Yeah. Yes. So basically, when we're first born, you know, this is all from Doctor Dan Siegel. He's a neuroscientist, who's written a lot of great parenting books, but he's got an approach called interpersonal neurobiology, Jeff. And it's basically the science of how my brain interacts with your brain. And the reason why I want to share this, because, it really connects well to how God has wired us. So I want, for those people who are listeners who are, you know, have faith is a big deal. This is really, really cool. When you're 0-18 months, when you have a little baby, the main form part of the kid's brain is the brain stem. So this is all fight, flight or freeze. So everyone who has had a baby 0-18 months, all the kid's doing is either smiling or crying. The kid's either, or sleeping, right. So the kid is either like, happy and content or they're like freaking out. So, so what every parent does that, they pick up that kid and they just naturally hold that kid and kind of rock that kid. And what you do is pretty awesome. You actually help that kid regulate their body with your body, that the kid can't do it without your help. And so if you don't feel safe, if you are scared or you are, your heart is beating fast or you're breathing quick. I don't know if you've experienced this, Jeff, but your kid won't eat, your kid won't sleep. Your kid will be in this panic mode.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:21:45] And so many, so many rookie dads and their first child especially feel like it's the moms zone, right. Those first, that first 0-18 months. And the idea of take your shirt off and go skin to skin and just enjoy your kid. Like I just like I tried to tell all these dads, just enjoy them. And you don't have to know exactly what you're doing, but just, chill out, right. I mean, there's, it's more complicated for some. There's different complications with bottle and all this stuff.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:10] Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:10] I used to struggle, even our third child getting like, myself calm and not overwhelmed because I struggled.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:22:19] Well, Jeff, I'll confess, I sucked at it so bad. In fact, one time my wife left me home, went back to work with our first kid, Abby, and she said, hey, I'm going to work. And I'm like, okay, what do I do with Abby? She's like, you just take this bottle and you feed her. It's really simple. And I'm like, it doesn't sound as simple as you're saying. So, like she leaves. And seriously, I was in the brainstem like I was in fight, flight or freeze, and I was holding Abby and see what I want your listeners to hear if I'm in that mode, if I'm in fight, flight or freeze, she can't not be there. Like, like the fear I am feeling will feed into her body, right. So she would not take the bottle. And I'm all tense and I'm having visions of my wife divorcing me because my daughter died of starvation.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:01] I've been here, I've been there.
Kyle Wester: [00:23:03] Yes, yes. So then, so I actually, I don't know if you did this, I actually took Abby to the babysitter, and the babysitter fed Abby and I just sat there in shame and, like, what a sucky Dad I am.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:14] So, I never took to a babysitter. But, I had to drive the baby across town, get my wife out of a, to come out to the car and nurse our baby because I could not get the bottle. So I did, so there you go. Dad fails.
Kyle Wester: [00:23:23] Okay, good, good.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:25] I'll let you keep going.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:23:26] Yeah. So then 18 months to 4 years old is when the limbic system comes online. So now you'll notice your kid has a lot of emotions, right. It's not just say, am I going to die or am I going to live? Now they could be nervous and anxious and disappointed and jealous, all these kind of big emotions. And if you can imagine being a little kid, I mean, if you've ever felt jealous, Jeff, I know I have, like, if you can imagine that feeling coming on them and having no idea what it is, what to do with it, it's freaking them out. And it's not that they're completely losing control of their body, but they feel like you as the adult don't get it. And what that looks like is a tantrum. It looks like, you know, they asked for a cookie. You said they couldn't have another one and they think you don't understand. I may never get another cookie, ever. And so like, so they'll throw the tantrum. So, what Siegel, what Siegel says in his work is to help them move from the brainstem to the limbic system, they need to know, am I safe? But to move out of the limbic system, they need to know, am I loved? So what they need is connection. And for every listener, every dad, you know this feeling. It's when you come home from work and you've had a stressed out day and when you talk to your wife about your day, you're wanting her to just listen. You're wanting her to just care. You're not wanting her to tell you that's ridiculous, that you're upset about that or try to just solve all your problems. Nobody in the limbic system wants that. We want to go to a friend or a person who will just empathize with what your day was like, you know. And that's exactly what the three year old or the four year old is wanting. They just want you to empathize.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:25:01] Wow.
Kyle Wester: [00:25:02] Okay. And and then once they move from their four years old on up to about mid-twenties is when your prefrontal cortex is being developed. And that's where self-control is. That's where empathy is, problem solving. So, here's the beauty of knowing this information, why this awareness is so helpful is the reason why, like in marriage counseling, you know, let's say that the husband keeps trying to solve the wife's problems. And the wife is saying, I just want him to shut up and listen to me. The reason why that works is because in order to really empathize with my wife, I have to be in the prefrontal cortex. So let's say she's in the limbic system, I can help shift my wife up to a better part of her brain just by answering the question, which is am I loved? Yeah. Do you understand what I'm going through? Will you connect with me, or are you going to judge me and shame me like I'm already doing to myself, right? So if you can connect this now, there's a great psychiatrist, he's a Christian psychiatrist named Doctor Kurt Thompson, and he's got a book called Anatomy of the Soul. And in his book he studied with Dr. Siegel. And he talks about how this shows us how God has wired us, and why the Christian disciplines are so effective is because when we pray, when we meditate, when we worship, when we do these exercises that have been known throughout church history to be healthy and effective for us, we're answering these questions. We're connecting to somebody outside of us, who's whispering to us, you are safe. You are loved. And then once you get to the prefrontal cortex, the question is, what can I learn? You're like, basically, how can we do this together? How can we change this situation? And I just picture God coming with an open hand and us coming with a closed hand, and He stays calm with us. He, he comforts us until our hand opens up. And then our hands can come together and we can really solve that problem together.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:26:54] Wow. Kyle, I'm thinking about Adam and Eve's choice in the garden, and that they were just trying to answer that, am I loved, in the wrong place. And then they hid. And, like, it's just, like, list versus the go walk with God. That option. Let's work it out there. So, there's lots of layering elements.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:27:13] Even think about it, Jeff, in that story, the main reason why there was such a temptation was because the temptation, the first lie was He's withholding from you. He won't give you the thing that you actually want, so you have to go take it. And that's actually the very thing you're dealing with kids when they're very little. And so that's where I want to help them know I'm not withholding anything. Everything I have is yours. Everything I have, right. But I'm going to help you get self-control. I'm going to help you maintain, you know, control of your body. So then we can together work together towards a healthier outcome than just demanding and grabbing and taking.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:27:49] Yes. This, I'm sure this, this all threads together with this, the idea of throughout even the last 100 years, the approach to control based parenting and behavior, really behavior based parenting versus, kind of, the empowering the the connecting with their emotions and really the inside out, I think, is even the way it's described by one author. Would you explain kind of the difference, the options that we all have, we can go this way or that way?
Jeff Zaugg: [00:28:17] No, I love that you're asking that, Jeff, because that was really helpful to me too. Is you basically have two streams, so you have two streams of parenting. You have one that's behavior focused and one that's emotion focused. One that's an outside in model and one that's an inside out model. And of course, I love the inside out model because I think it's what God does. Every time I've gone to God in prayer, I felt like He was always doing an inside out thing. You know, IT wasn't outside in. But, but, but, but, but the issue with it's not that the, the the behavior focus is bad. It's not that it's wrong. It's just limited. It's limited. Now, what we do know throughout history, behaviorism, which is, you know, kind of been coined by the psychologist B.F. Skinner. It's very helpful in a sense of if you are a person who sat a lot and you just practiced smiling more, like that will help you. If you're depressed and you're laying in bed a lot, getting up and moving around and taking a shower, that can help change your mood, right. All of that we know to be true. So it's not even saying there's no truth to that. It's just when you're raising a little human being, I think the most powerful, sustainable way to help them and disciple them is helping them know what's happening inside and then letting that inside change the outside. And so if I can give you a quick example of how I first confronted this, where, okay, we're at church one day and we had two kids, Abby and Brennan, and the pastor was preaching on the fruit of the spirit being peace. And I was, I'm looking at my family going, dude, we got this, bro. Like, we got, we got peace. I just like I'm so proud of myself. I'm like, we have done this and we come home, and Brennan was a little baby. Abby was probably four at the time, maybe three. And I remember my wife starts breastfeeding Brennan after church, and Abby flips out. Like Abby, just like she wants mom. And she is like, you get Brennan off of mom. So she's like, she's like literally climbing my wife, trying to grab her. And I'm like, what is happening? Where is the peace? Right. So I grab her, just knowing nothing else, so I grab her, I pick her up, I go back to the back bathroom, and I sit against the door in the bathroom and she starts, like, hitting the door and she's like, let me, let me out. And I said, Abby, we're not going anywhere till you calm down, like we're not. And she just keeps screaming. So eventually I put my head down, Jeff and I just start praying. I just start saying God like, help me, Lord. And Abby then looks at me, a little calmer, and says, what are you doing? And I said, I'm praying, honey, because I have no idea what else to do. And so she kind of, I saw her body start to relax. I saw, and from the brain stem, I saw her move from the brain stem to the limbic system. How do I know that? Because she's no longer in fight or flight. So she looks at me and I look at her and I say, Abby, why are you so mad? And she, with tears in her eyes, said, I don't know, Dad, I don't know. And I said, like I was listening to the Holy Spirit, feel like the Holy Spirit said it's called jealousy. She's never felt it. So I said, Abby, can I give you a hug? And she gave me a hug. And then we went back and we repaired it. She went back to mom, apologized for all that stuff, right. And then when I was talking to a friend about this story, he illuminated even more. He said, Kyle, how many times has God done that with you? How many times as He sat against the bathroom door, as you were screaming and yelling, saying, I want what that person has. Give me the promotion. Give me the job. Give me the wealth. And He's like, no. We're not, we're not leaving this room until you're calm down, because I don't want you to leave this room, Kyle, and hurt the people you love Once you connect with me, I'll help you be able to ask and pursue what you want in a way that isn't motivated by fear and jealousy and lack.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:32:04] Wow, Kyle, you, this celebration of repair moments. You just you, you briefly mentioned, we went back and repaired. And I, I just know this is true about you. Like you truly see a stumble moment a oh, I was a little, I was way too strong there. I use my size, my voice, whatever the thing happened. Like you actually like treasure repair moments. And I haven't met that many people that, that talk about them with as much like Joy of, I'm not glad that there was hurt cause, but what an opportunity to demonstrate love and forgiveness and repentance. Could you, yeah, explain a little bit of your perspective on repair?
Jeff Zaugg: [00:32:40] But, Jeff, I'll tell you what motivated that, what motivated, I was really mad at myself for messing up so much, losing m,y my, my emotions so many times and, like, yelling at the, I was just so mad at myself. And I thought to myself, wait a second, wait, wait. It's unrealistic to say I'm never going to do this. Like I'm obviously going to mess up. So you know what you need to get really good at? Is repair, right. And so, so at first what that looked like was your standard, I'm coming back and I'm apologizing like freaking daily, to the kids. And I remember one day my daughter, Abby, was like, dad, I love that you apologized. Could you just change it? And I'm like it, yeah. She's like, it seems like I'm, we're constantly saying, okay, dad, we forgive you, if I change it. So then I started to pursue what really would change it. And I felt like, oh, the thing I was missing was vulnerability. I wasn't being vulnerable, I was, I was really wanting them to make me feel better. I was really asking for forgiveness so they would absolve me of the guilt or shame I was feeling, right. And I thought, that's why this isn't helping, because I'm still being motivated by shame. I'm still being motivated by fear. So, so that's when I started helping my clients, and I started doing it myself, by going what's underneath all this anger and this mad that I'm feeling? And really what we know is it's fear. Really fear and hurt are what's under anger most of the time, you know. And so I started, in these repair moments, Jeff, I would come back to my kids and this was once again an attempt to limit the damage and the baggage, I was like giving my kids. And so I'm like, okay, if I'm gonna mess up throughout my life multiple times, I want to make sure and limit the damage that's caused, right. So I want to make these moments about intimacy, about us growing together. So how could we do this? So, so I would do this, I would encourage every dad who has any issues with yelling to do this, because this was super helpful. Is I would say to my kid, I would say, hey, earlier today I yelled to you and they say, I know, dad, you got really mad. I know, I know, I got, I got I own it, I own it, okay. Do you think my anger was about you or about me? And initially they would always say about them. And I would say, honey, my anger's never about you. My anger is always telling you about me. Okay. And then, and then they would stop, kind of like surprise. And then I would say, can I tell you what it says about me? And they, now they're curious. They'd be like, what? And then I would say to them, I was afraid. And then they would say, afraid of what? And I say, I was afraid I was losing control of the situation. I was afraid my voice no longer had any power in your life. So I was going to get really loud and make sure it did. Or I was afraid of looking stupid in that moment. So I tried to make you look stupid. And I'm really sorry about that. Will you forgive me for that? And those moments, really, I could see it start changing our relationship to where one my kids were now interested in the follow up conversations, which I think are vital instead of being so like, dad's going to lecture, Dad's going to follow up and he's going to lecture. Instead, they saw these follow up moments as moments that we were going to turn that moment that looks so, so negative into something so beautiful, right. But then what it does, Jeff, is now that my kids are teenagers or, you know, my daughter is, my son is almost there, is now they're doing the same thing with me. They're able to tell me what they were afraid of and why they yelled.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:35:58] Yes. You've normalized vulnerability in those moments and a desire to grow and change and bring healing and, oh, Kyle, like, that's so powerful. I, I haven't even mentioned yet the name of your podcast, which I wanted to just say congratulations. The Art of Raising Humans, that's shared and, like, 203 episodes at the time.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:36:21] Yeah, yeah. We just I think we dropped 100, 102 , yeah, this past Monday.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:36:24] Congratulations.
Kyle Wester: [00:36:25] Thank you.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:36:25] That is so fun, for, for me, for DadAwesome to cheer on other parenting resources that have crested the century mark, the 100 episode. That's a huge deal of just resources. But you, every episode, you're dropping like 4 to 10 books like this, this, you're talking to authors, you're sharing, from maybe I'd say your perspective is, is, you're going deeper than typically what DadAwesome goes as far as the science, the brain, the, in such an amazing way. Like so I just wanted to cheer for what you guys are doing, send our people your way, but say congratulations. But also, can we do a quick book blitz where, for dads, for the DadAwesome community. 3, 4 or 5, whatever, what are some of your top, like these will be helpful for us?
Kyle Wester: [00:37:06] Yeah, well, it's a, Jeff, when we were talking about this before the recording is something that I really try and intentionally do with dads because I know so many Dads, one, they aren't as motivated to read, which I would encourage every dad. That's what successful people do.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:37:20] Leaders, leaders are readers, and dads, you're a leader, so be a reader.
Kyle Wester: [00:37:24] Exactly. Well, and really, there's so much out there that God wants to help you with. And there's great authors who have given you that so you don't have to, like, fumble through it. You can just go read some stuff. So I know it might be hard, but you got audio, you got all types of ways, right. And then I also know in the parenting world, a lot of times what I run into is it's the moms who are seeking out information and they're finding a lot of great voices, but they're mostly other women. So a lot of dads are like, and I was too. Initially I was like, how am I supposed to be like this woman? Like, I don't understand.. Like she's so nurturing. And that's just, that's just not me, right. And I actually, funny enough, I tried to do like, my wife is like those people when she talks to the kids, it sounds just like those people. So I try to do that. I'd be like, this feels weird. Like, this is not me. I need to figure out a way. So, so that's how I found these other authors. So, I love Dr. Cohen, and he's got a book called Playful Parenting. And so I love how he takes conflict, and he gives dad the freedom to turn every conflict into a moment of play and then a moment of learning, right. He's also got a really good book for kids who are anxious, and that book's called Opposite of Worry. And so that's another Drr. Cohen book. Now, for those dads who love the science and you're like, oh, I'd love the science. Then you want to delve into Dr. Dan Siegel's book. So he's got an a book called No Drama Discipline. He's also got a book called Parenting from the Inside Out, and one other book called The Whole Brain Child. So he's a neuroscientist. Like now, dads who love research, like, hey, wait a second, does this emotion focused parenting actually work? Well, there's actually been some research on that. And it does. And so if you go to Dr. Gottman, he's got an a book called Raising Emotionally Intelligent Children. And he is a data guy and he actually takes two control groups or one is more behavior focused, the other one is more emotion focused. And the outcomes of how those kids grow up, you know, obviously the emotion focus more come out self-controlled, you know, more able to be assertive in their communication and all this kind of thing. So so those are great. And then of course, I mentioned, Dr. Kurt Thompson with Anatomy of the Soul. And one more I'll say is Dr. Gary Thomas with Sacred Parenting.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:39:31] Okay, we have 70 resources on the DadAwesome Resource Bank, kind of the resource vault. And I think only one of the like nine you mentioned is on there. So this is, so this is like a treasure. We just, Thank you. Thank you for passing along that, that strong recommendation and contextualize for us dads. Kyle, is there anything else that we haven't covered yet? I'm sure there are a ton. But anything just top of mind kind of, yeah, you're feeling like on your heart you want to share with with the DadAwesome listener?
Kyle Wester: [00:39:57] Yeah. I think I'd wrap it up. The reason why I love talking to dads in particular, Jeff, is I know you have this heart and so do I. That I think right now in culture, it's very difficult to be a dad. And the reason why it's very difficult is because the old school way of just doing stuff like it was done before, just control, you know, power, intimidation, we know better now. We just know better. And, but the problem is, is no one's showing dads how to do it. You know, lots of dads who want to change. So, like, I don't know anybody else not doing this. And yet we're all secretly going it's hurting our relationship with our kids. Like our teenagers aren't talking to us. They're not opening up to us. And so there's like this shame that they're not doing it better, but then having no tools to do it differently or no role models to even look to, to go, oh, that guy did it and his kids turned out great. I know, so I know as a dad, my wife and I were so worried that we were screwing up our kids. And it's really, I speak to you from confidence, not that we do it all perfect, that's gross. We don't do it that way. We mess up a lot. I loved how you got, you gave me the opportunity, like I repair a bunch, you know. So like, a lot of what I teach parents is how to repair, how to follow up. So I want to just speak to those dads who are saying, man, I want to stop yelling. Man, I want to have a long, sustainable relationship with my kids that goes way into adulthood where we are open and vulnerable and close. But I just don't know how to do it, that there are resources for you. Okay. And so I get to help dads all throughout the world, Jeff, get to coach them with this. And so if they don't, they can come to me, they can come to lot, but they've got your podcast, they got my podcast. There's a lot of places, but I just want them to have hope and know that there are people who can help them be the dad that they want to be.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:41:48] Thank you. And we will link out, I mean, your website, your podcast. You offer that coaching counseling side, which is amazing and you can be anywhere and do it digitally. So that's so great.
Kyle Wester: [00:41:58] And I would tell if you're interested in knowing more, just go, just email me at kyle@artofraisinghumans.com. So, email at kyle@artofraisinghumans.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:42:06] Shortcut, they don't go looking for it. We got it and we'll have it in the show notes. Thank you, Kyle. Would you say a short prayer over all of us dads?
Kyle Wester: [00:42:11] Yes. Love to. God, thank You so much that You are such a great Dad. That You have been such a wonderful model to me about how to love my kids more deeply than I ever thought was possible. And thank You, Lord, for giving Jeff and I the opportunity to reach out to so many dads with Your heart. And so I pray that every dad here was able to feel that hope and able to say, man, maybe I could be that dad. Maybe I could be a model to my kids that actually makes it enticing to someday follow God and see Him as a loving Father who's always there for them. So I just pray that You put that in their hearts and help them to be able to find that and reach out to they have the courage to start making the change that they know they want to make. And just thank you, Lord, for this information and knowledge in this time. In Jesus name, Amen.
Jeff Zaugg: [00:43:07] Thank you so much for joining us for episode 327 with Kyle Wester. All the conversation notes are going to be located at dadwesome.org/podcast. And Kyle gave out his email address, that'll be listed in the show notes. You can reach out for coaching, counseling, supports in the area of, man, your role as a dad. Sometimes we come with our kids to, to someone, a coach, a parent coach like Kyle and say, hey, can you help my kid? And he'll actually be like, hey, actually, let me focus on you as a dad first. And, and then he'll kind of work both sides. But, man, he is a phenomenal resource. The podcast that he hosts is phenomenal. So check out all the resources linked in the show notes. Guys, again, we are featuring the special 15% off on everything on the DadAwesome Store. So reminder through Mother's Day you can get 15% off with the code momawesome. And another just last parting nudge to you guys is let's be dads of action. Let's not just listen and be dads of intent. Let's be pressing in. Let's be dads who are saying, man, I'm going to put time on the calendar with my kids. I'm going to take something from today's conversation and be a dad who puts action to it and my kids will notice the difference. Thanks for being DadAwesome this week. Have a great week, guys!
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· 6:28 - "Success for us, when I look at my kids and I know that we are doing it well, that we are succeeding as parents, is when I see the fruit of the spirit easily pouring out of their daily life. What's neat is when you tie that in to the brain science, all of us as human beings, when we are at our best and we are really able to show up, be seen, bring more light to a dark place, it's when we're in the prefrontal cortex. And what's interesting about the prefrontal cortex is I can only get there when I feel safe and loved."
· 9:31 - "I have super high expectations on my kids. I really believe that every place they are is going to be better because they are there. And if for some reason that isn't happening and I'm noticing that, then me and my wife are wondering what is the supports my kid needed in that moment to be able to really shine the way God intended them to in that moment?"
· 26:02 - "This shows us how God has wired us and why the Christian disciplines are so effective, is because when we pray, when we meditate, when we worship, when we do these exercises that have been known throughout church history to be healthy and effective for us, we're answering these questions. We're connecting to somebody outside of us, who's whispering to us, you are safe. You are loved. And then once you get to the prefrontal cortex, the question is, what can I learn? You're basically saying, how can we do this together? How can we change this situation? I just picture God coming with an open hand and us coming with a closed hand, and He stays calm with us. He comforts us until our hand opens up. And then our hands can come together and we can really solve that problem together."
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